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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:59:01 -0700
Message-ID: <698DE66518E7CA45812BD18E807866CE6483E8@us-ex1.zend.net>
Thread-Topic: [PHP-DEV] POSIX regex
Thread-Index: AcfIf+ssIiohRaiIS/asRNx8fSVBJAAAxMaA
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To: <jani.taskinen@iki.fi>
Cc: <internals@lists.php.net>
Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] POSIX regex
From: andi@zend.com ("Andi Gutmans")

I thought you were retired at the time...=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jani Taskinen [mailto:jani.taskinen@sci.fi]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:37 AM
> To: Andi Gutmans
> Cc: internals@lists.php.net
> Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] POSIX regex
>=20
> Just FYI: I did not agree with that choice. And IIRC, neither=20
> did several other people here.
>=20
> --Jani
>=20
> On Tue, 2007-07-17 at 07:27 -0700, Andi Gutmans wrote:
> > A few months ago we agreed that we will give our users the=20
> choice of=20
> > both modes. The burdon of maintenance has mainly been on us=20
> btw as the=20
> > majority of the differences here are in the Zend Engine and the=20
> > extensions don't have as much work associated with them.
> >=20
> > Here's my proposed way of figuring how to make migration=20
> easier. Port=20
> > the following applications to PHP 6 and let's see what we can learn=20
> > from
> > it:
> > - mediaWiki
> > - SugarCRM
> > - Drupal
> > - Wordpress
> >=20
> > I don't think we can have more of a reality check than=20
> actually going=20
> > through this exercise and understanding the issues. As I mentioned=20
> > from the small work we have done up to now it seems like=20
> there really=20
> > is no migration patch except for applications to be almost=20
> completely=20
> > rewritten when unicode_semantics=3Don. I don't think this is=20
> a feasible=20
> > way to go. But if volunteers can work on this porting and=20
> it allows us=20
> > to fix some things (if they are fixable) then that would change the=20
> > situation.
> >=20
> > I believe that people who actually do this exercise and=20
> want to have a=20
> > migration path will understand that there's no other way except to=20
> > support unicode_semantics=3Doff. Btw, most languages deliver=20
> Unicode in=20
> > this way and it works pretty well.
> >=20
> > Andi
> >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Lukas Kahwe Smith [mailto:mls@pooteeweet.org]
> > > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 11:40 PM
> > > To: Andi Gutmans
> > > Cc: Ilia Alshanetsky; jani.taskinen@iki.fi;=20
> internals@lists.php.net
> > > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] POSIX regex
> > >=20
> > > Andi Gutmans wrote:
> > >=20
> > > > There are clear things we want to change (like=20
> register_globals)=20
> > > > because we believe that ultimately they have a significant
> > > benefit to
> > > > our users with controllable downside (there is an easy one line=20
> > > > workaround which we can document for people to get their
> > > old apps to
> > > > work). There are other areas where breaking BC makes sense.=20
> > > But saying
> > > > we should just break it across the board and not even
> > > consider having
> > > > a good upgrade path for our users is unreasonable. I believe we=20
> > > > can have a very good PHP 6, which is pretty much in sync with
> > > many of your
> > > > feelings, but that provides a well documented and
> > > reasonable upgrade
> > > > path (unlike VB -> VB.NET).
> > >=20
> > > I never said we should break BC just for the hell of it. The goal=20
> > > must be that PHP6 feels and behaves like PHP. Its not about=20
> > > high-jacking PHP to come up with the language we all=20
> wanted instead.
> > >=20
> > > > So let's not oversimplify this situation. We have to
> > > continue to make
> > > > trade-offs.
> > >=20
> > > Sure, but you are suggesting to delay decisions indefinitely.=20
> > > Either you are saying this because you already decided that you=20
> > > don't want this change, or you are accepting that our=20
> users will be=20
> > > unable to prepare themselves for what happens in the=20
> future. This of=20
> > > course will make it that much harder for them to take the plunge=20
> > > into PHP6.
> > >=20
> > > > Btw, one of PHP's strengths has been in high=20
> performance sites and=20
> > > > with a Unicode=3Don only mode this would take quite a hit
> > > (but it's not
> > > > the only reason why I need we need choice). In any=20
> case, I think=20
> > > > on this question it does make sense that we start=20
> making "informed"
> > > > decisions by understanding the migration path better,=20
> as opposed=20
> > > > to just basing decisions on gut feelings. Maybe that kind of=20
> > > > learning experience will proove me wrong (which may be so).
> > >=20
> > > I have not seen any proposed way of finding out this=20
> migration path=20
> > > besides lets wait. Lets wait is not the answer. What I=20
> asked for was=20
> > > exactly a decision on how far we are willing to go with=20
> the breakage=20
> > > and more importantly the fundamental decision about how=20
> we approach=20
> > > unicode in PHP6.
> > > The on off switch is not something that makes sense to=20
> delay until=20
> > > forever. Its a big decision and once its decided other=20
> things will=20
> > > become much easier (like PHP6 development or deciding the=20
> impact of=20
> > > other potential BC breaks).
> > >=20
> > > regards,
> > > Lukas
> > >=20
> >=20
> > --
> > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To=20
> unsubscribe,=20
> > visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >=20
>=20
>=20