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Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:36:41 +0300
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Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] POSIX regex
From: jani.taskinen@sci.fi (Jani Taskinen)

Just FYI: I did not agree with that choice. And IIRC, neither did
several other people here.

--Jani

On Tue, 2007-07-17 at 07:27 -0700, Andi Gutmans wrote:
> A few months ago we agreed that we will give our users the choice of
> both modes. The burdon of maintenance has mainly been on us btw as the
> majority of the differences here are in the Zend Engine and the
> extensions don't have as much work associated with them. 
> 
> Here's my proposed way of figuring how to make migration easier. Port
> the following applications to PHP 6 and let's see what we can learn from
> it:
> - mediaWiki
> - SugarCRM
> - Drupal
> - Wordpress
> 
> I don't think we can have more of a reality check than actually going
> through this exercise and understanding the issues. As I mentioned from
> the small work we have done up to now it seems like there really is no
> migration patch except for applications to be almost completely
> rewritten when unicode_semantics=on. I don't think this is a feasible
> way to go. But if volunteers can work on this porting and it allows us
> to fix some things (if they are fixable) then that would change the
> situation.
> 
> I believe that people who actually do this exercise and want to have a
> migration path will understand that there's no other way except to
> support unicode_semantics=off. Btw, most languages deliver Unicode in
> this way and it works pretty well.
> 
> Andi
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lukas Kahwe Smith [mailto:mls@pooteeweet.org] 
> > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 11:40 PM
> > To: Andi Gutmans
> > Cc: Ilia Alshanetsky; jani.taskinen@iki.fi; internals@lists.php.net
> > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] POSIX regex
> > 
> > Andi Gutmans wrote:
> > 
> > > There are clear things we want to change (like register_globals) 
> > > because we believe that ultimately they have a significant 
> > benefit to 
> > > our users with controllable downside (there is an easy one line 
> > > workaround which we can document for people to get their 
> > old apps to 
> > > work). There are other areas where breaking BC makes sense. 
> > But saying 
> > > we should just break it across the board and not even 
> > consider having 
> > > a good upgrade path for our users is unreasonable. I believe we can 
> > > have a very good PHP 6, which is pretty much in sync with 
> > many of your 
> > > feelings, but that provides a well documented and 
> > reasonable upgrade 
> > > path (unlike VB -> VB.NET).
> > 
> > I never said we should break BC just for the hell of it. The 
> > goal must be that PHP6 feels and behaves like PHP. Its not 
> > about high-jacking PHP to come up with the language we all 
> > wanted instead.
> > 
> > > So let's not oversimplify this situation. We have to 
> > continue to make 
> > > trade-offs.
> > 
> > Sure, but you are suggesting to delay decisions indefinitely. 
> > Either you are saying this because you already decided that 
> > you don't want this change, or you are accepting that our 
> > users will be unable to prepare themselves for what happens 
> > in the future. This of course will make it that much harder 
> > for them to take the plunge into PHP6.
> > 
> > > Btw, one of PHP's strengths has been in high performance sites and 
> > > with a Unicode=on only mode this would take quite a hit 
> > (but it's not 
> > > the only reason why I need we need choice). In any case, I think on 
> > > this question it does make sense that we start making "informed" 
> > > decisions by understanding the migration path better, as opposed to 
> > > just basing decisions on gut feelings. Maybe that kind of learning 
> > > experience will proove me wrong (which may be so).
> > 
> > I have not seen any proposed way of finding out this 
> > migration path besides lets wait. Lets wait is not the 
> > answer. What I asked for was exactly a decision on how far we 
> > are willing to go with the breakage and more importantly the 
> > fundamental decision about how we approach unicode in PHP6. 
> > The on off switch is not something that makes sense to delay 
> > until forever. Its a big decision and once its decided other 
> > things will become much easier (like PHP6 development or 
> > deciding the impact of other potential BC breaks).
> > 
> > regards,
> > Lukas
> > 
> 
> -- 
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