Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:128809 X-Original-To: internals@lists.php.net Delivered-To: internals@lists.php.net Received: from php-smtp4.php.net (php-smtp4.php.net [45.112.84.5]) by lists.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D70C91A00BC for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2025 12:41:37 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=php.net; s=mail; t=1760100102; bh=0zhQIoiGS3xSE7FNninJc89TJU00QIKmbzjPfApGqlw=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:From; b=RgDfN9xnR5P0YEfyAngVqEmziELyXCupQKwgqOpcLWs8kmTXRLTtlSNWNplXBT3CZ IBwkTqlXzQtzlhiCSN9rljn9c+KhzGuOw/9lSePvdo0Vo+M6fvZuFAbA0LStgAxe4m xTq1HQfTeXuIFl1z3ZrE0ZsQNW/68acrRzU4CtjHGuNqt38S/yKkZP5WyLbyYUXQEy lej65ZeOUES4QLjznwwkIuxHM9DgzZcKMax70SFTAdQmhlLstyW6tknhBbfN5qmKaB gPVnIL+BMLmQO6ezrWQ8jDZ/c/2JwJAc3j6kklaI+HInfXfqvkyAzK+07SwKjlK3cg 4WdQj1rsEEUZg== Received: from php-smtp4.php.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by php-smtp4.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909C218007E for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2025 12:41:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-25) on php-smtp4.php.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,DMARC_PASS,HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL,SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=4.0.1 X-Spam-Virus: No X-Envelope-From: Received: from mail-pl1-f182.google.com (mail-pl1-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by php-smtp4.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2025 12:41:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl1-f182.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-27d4d6b7ab5so27989085ad.2 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2025 05:41:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jetbrains.com; s=googleapps; t=1760100095; x=1760704895; darn=lists.php.net; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=9FVwtajfIr+LvZalD+04HdXXvlxCsIp5SPYgx8XmqlA=; b=NEtGG1a0P/J1+pLcIMgyuQS7tU3IgonnBtWfSqUXRjfwFVTPhP0uyp1AvPeZ3aErHF fxvPGJqUwOSZSMQH6dUKAhGs/mZZtSCgXCPUO7nA/sqQXyaOlyeul1JOqbWOw/X+L5NE KWqs7ZhoF5pMTmmSSCTmo9uiBF3kmlBMn24g4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1760100095; x=1760704895; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=9FVwtajfIr+LvZalD+04HdXXvlxCsIp5SPYgx8XmqlA=; b=WY5FJ71R8cbcAxJfWaHkI6fae7OLf2iURXqjgwFY9vNsC7WHE222edvGmm9BbN3dRM J57J4GWYHfRl8s+cpIVJnXVEvOVsDmGWy2cp56A0K1+CkM7tN+42kT9/Ozpcg7HNQELN de6UXKmGW/Ql7FSUxr6piGFLj3tr0if4fZwbqSPg88lZ+3IlWXA1Rj0f45YehYa2+x+e r4C5II21u4Tbp1IGGuyS+GOvZkrruQanzh3Qcv5RWYLbS9qIJ2XQ1fkhOGWYLSakbbTP rCcDeKc0cLh7CaAQuP6X97c4DoG3mUBV46SJwyAJoMrtQa0X79amZD+2Pko6uXzOxWZZ 8lPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YydKRe3rAIZeL9rTfrUcJ5zbbNskjhGT2vhdKgber7TW43DECL7 GtI3JbVNyVLGIh1O3MTyWuGx1wsbdM7JluMsoPbYZomPZjqLDwM1sBl7CmkOB2PgbkAo7oRUtRL 1LT/hCFE4tIdJ8RT6NPl2tRwVoZk/LXQBrM9v8TXr54jJLKa4XDulqDuW X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncv9mPPT0exdps9FmWyNHMiQvckulV64h2gecnjKQQXgQn70sQrfnHoNpKmN51p x7P+cQXqUMjNmEt1v1Op+nd5Y87Aokc17TE0w3/Ahto85MMWQpNK3ZvAdEl92w/WI4PNupvSAES T8Q2BBo7OAS4y0txrp6WRR1Q04BIx5krnPkINELM2+avYh9VYASiPUFaI8fD/OrqVsF8t/NYRjx cyzsJbPXUj9K/yQPy7bVo3nVCDYT4+G4fKzqzjBSuRxncL0VmYePZke6qXCIaJzd23fmDiupBCl gmHVrJUVrMgkjr4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHLPsR5BouMYCtrEr2AVBkYfMo6h1DNi0FIex+YNs8mnjaQP6DHoQ3d36Bu4S/lh1yDzInG8GETvrl2DYulTB4= X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:2d2:b0:267:6754:8fd9 with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-290272c9322mr140893685ad.39.1760100094904; Fri, 10 Oct 2025 05:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: list list-help: list-post: List-Id: x-ms-reactions: disallow MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2025 14:41:24 +0200 X-Gm-Features: AS18NWBfZCNdrObLACAbYuUfWUN7RrstUSrpH_hbQqDE3iVwtgWYGHxEqqTN6sk Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [Discussion] Deprecate PEAR and recommend Composer To: PHP Internals List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ed36a20640cd3c68" From: brent.roose@jetbrains.com (Brent Roose) --000000000000ed36a20640cd3c68 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > The only thing related to PHP/internals is the fact PEAR is bundled with > PHP and that the PEAR website is a subdomain pear.php.net. > In my opinion, this is sufficient reason to have an RFC for it. A quick search through the RFCs showed a handful of website-related ones: - https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecate-pear-include-composer - https://wiki.php.net/rfc/global_login - https://wiki.php.net/rfc/phpnet-analytics Then there's the fact that Pear comes bundled with PHP, even more of an argument that internals have at least something to say about it. Several RFCs have addressed bundling/unbundling third party plugins before. Again, a quick search: - https://wiki.php.net/rfc/unbundle_imap_pspell_oci8 - https://wiki.php.net/rfc/unbundle_xmlprc - https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecate-and-remove-ext-wddx - https://wiki.php.net/rfc/unbundle_recode To me, and I believe to a significant part of the PHP community, what's most important is for PHP to acknowledge that composer is its de-facto standard package manager. This doesn't mean composer cannot operate independently anymore, but an endorsement would make a lot of sense. Brent On Fri, Oct 10, 2025 at 12:39=E2=80=AFPM Jakub Zelenka wrot= e: > Hi, > > On Fri, Oct 10, 2025 at 12:01=E2=80=AFPM Pierre Joye wrote: > >> Hi James, >> >> On Fri, Oct 10, 2025, 3:29 PM James Titcumb >> wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 9 Oct 2025 at 21:39, Christoph M. Becker wrote: >>> >>>> Apparently, this RFC has been withdrawn in the meantime. I would like >>>> to know why. :) >>> >>> >>> I absolutely agree with you - a discussion took place on the PHP >>> Foundation slack. I raised a concern that it should be discussed here o= n >>> the list for transparency. I am frustrated that it was not. >>> >>> The short version of that discussion is that PEAR is maintained by >>> someone else; the PEAR group apparently is separate from the PHP group,= as >>> I understand it. >>> >> >> >> I don't remember the reason back then but it was basically maintained by >> core devs at some point, including myself. >> >> > Is that still the case though? I don't think that any current core > developer has access to their GH organizattion. Or do you still have acce= ss > / control to do any changes there and make it deprecated? My main issue > with this RFC is that it's about project that we don't effectively contro= l > and I'm not sure here is anyone who can make any such change to it. From > what I see it's currently maintained by Chuck who, I guess, also control > the project. Or am I wrong? > > Alternatively we could potentially propose here move that away from the > PHP domain if we think it's not good for PHP image but that could mean th= at > we might completely shut it down without any deprecation if there is no > agreement with the current maintainers. > > So the ideal case would be to put together some plan how to either get it > deprecated and moved away. But for that we need to first here from the > current maintainers and get them on board. > > If here is anyone who has access to PEAR and can comment on this, that > would be great! I also CC'd Chuck as I think it's crucial to get his > opinion on this. > > Kind regards, > > Jakub > --000000000000ed36a20640cd3c68 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=
The only thing related to PHP/internals is the fact P= EAR is bundled with PHP and that the PEAR website is a subdomain=C2=A0pear.php.net.
=

In my opinion, this is sufficient reason = to have an RFC for it.=C2=A0A quick search through the RFCs showed a handfu= l of website-related ones:

-=C2=A0https://wiki.php.net/rfc/global_login

Then there= 's the fact that Pear comes bundled with PHP, even more of an argument = that internals have at least something to say about it. Several RFCs have a= ddressed bundling/unbundling third party plugins before. Again, a quick sea= rch:





On Fri,= Oct 10, 2025 at 12:39=E2=80=AFPM Jakub Zelenka <bukka@php.net> wrote:
Hi,

On Fri, Oct 10, 2025 at 12:= 01=E2=80=AFPM Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi James,

On Fri, Oct 10, 2025, 3:29 PM James Titcumb <titcumbjames@gmail.com> wrote= :
=
On Thu, 9 Oct 2025 at 21:39, Christop= h M. Becker wrote:
Apparently, this RFC has been withdrawn in the meantime.=C2=A0 I would like=
to know why. :)

I absolutely=20 agree with=C2=A0you - a discussion took place on the PHP Foundation slack. = I=20 raised a concern that it should be discussed here on the list for=20 transparency. I am frustrated that it was not.

The short version of that discussion is that PEAR is maintained by someone=20 else; the PEAR group apparently is separate from the PHP group, as I=20 understand it.


I don't = remember the reason back then but it was basically maintained by core devs = at some point, including myself.


Is that still the case though? I don't th= ink that any current core developer has access to their GH organizattion. O= r do you still have access / control to do any changes there and make it de= precated? My main issue with this RFC is that it's about project that w= e don't effectively control and I'm not sure here is anyone who can= make any such change to it. From what I see it's currently maintained = by Chuck who, I guess, also control the project. Or am I wrong?
<= br>
Alternatively we could potentially propose here move that awa= y from the PHP domain if we think it's not good for PHP image but that = could mean that we might completely shut it down without any deprecation if= there is no agreement with the current maintainers.

So the ideal case would be to put together some plan how to either get i= t deprecated and moved away. But for that we need to first here from the cu= rrent maintainers and get them on board.

If here i= s anyone who has access to PEAR and can comment on this, that would be grea= t! I also CC'd Chuck as I think it's crucial to get his opinion on = this.

Kind regards,

Jakub=
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