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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2025 21:13:50 +0900
Message-ID: <CAEPPVa35aD-Ls12pYr3ey6u2uQ6dN3ZR=vyq243A9nQ_0fVPLA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Clarify discussion and voting period rules
To: php internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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From: youkidearitai@gmail.com (youkidearitai)

2025=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=8827=E6=97=A5(=E5=9C=9F) 22:58 youkidearitai <youkidea=
ritai@gmail.com>:
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: youkidearitai <youkidearitai@gmail.com>
> Date: 2025=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=8827=E6=97=A5(=E5=9C=9F) 11:42
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Clarify discussion and voting period rules
> To: Tim D=C3=BCsterhus <tim@bastelstu.be>
>
>
> 2025=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=8827=E6=97=A5(=E5=9C=9F) 0:22 Tim D=C3=BCsterhus <ti=
m@bastelstu.be>:
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > On 9/25/25 00:02, Rob Landers wrote:
> > > This goes back to what I was saying: pretty much any change can be ju=
stified as =E2=80=9Ca clarification=E2=80=9D by an author. We can choose to=
 accept the implication of a 2/3 majority, or challenge it.
> >
> > Absolutely, there is always some uncertainty when not treating somethin=
g
> > as a major change. I explicitly spelled out my reasoning when making th=
e
> > change, so that we as a community can discuss how we feel about this
> > type of change and to get some discussion precedent if a similar
> > situation arrives in the future.
> >
> > If it would've been a secondary vote, I would've treated it as a major
> > change, since in that case I would've considered that =E2=80=9CChanging=
 a voting
> > widget=E2=80=9D.
> >
> > > I also noted you changed the text to mention that a vote can basicall=
y be restarted for any reason. This would allow an unscrupulous person to b=
asically restart a vote if it isn=E2=80=99t going in the direction they wan=
t, without any reason other than an =E2=80=9Cissue=E2=80=9D with the RFC. T=
his means they can rely upon attrition to eventually pass an RFC that would=
 otherwise not pass, bypassing the current =E2=80=9Cone year or with major =
changes=E2=80=9D rule.
> >
> > Small correction: It's just half a year before an RFC may be reproposed=
.
> >
> > I don't think this is a significant risk: Casting a =E2=80=9CNo=E2=80=
=9D is simple and I
> > expect the regular folks to notice if an RFC is repeatedly restarted fo=
r
> > no good reason. If it becomes clearly abusive, I would expect this to b=
e
> > treated similarly to any other case of someone being abusive on the lis=
t.
> >
> > > For example, the nested classes RFC was clearly not going to pass. Ha=
d this policy existed, taking what feedback I had already gotten, I could h=
ave simply declared =E2=80=9Can issue=E2=80=9D and updated it with their fe=
edback; restarting the vote. I personally wouldn=E2=80=99t do that, but thi=
s would explicitly allow that behavior.
> >
> > I agree with both Nick and Larry that I would be okay with that: If you
> > realized less than 2 days into the vote that you didn't properly take
> > the feedback into account and then *do* take the feedback into account,
> > I'd consider this a success story rather than a failure.
> >
> > In fact we had just that for PHP 8.5. The =E2=80=9CAdd locale for case
> > insensitive grapheme functions=E2=80=9D RFC had gotten little feedback =
during
> > the discussion and during the vote, Derick mentioned that the proposal
> > was insufficient to make an educated decision. The vote was then
> > canceled and later (successfully) restarted:
> > https://externals.io/message/127791#127803
> >
> > Best regards
> > Tim D=C3=BCsterhus
>
> Hi, Tim
>
> > In fact we had just that for PHP 8.5. The =E2=80=9CAdd locale for case
> > insensitive grapheme functions=E2=80=9D RFC had gotten little feedback =
during
> > the discussion and during the vote, Derick mentioned that the proposal
> > was insufficient to make an educated decision. The vote was then
> > canceled and later (successfully) restarted:
> > https://externals.io/message/127791#127803
>
> I set up an Under discussion for two weeks and sent a reminder email,
> so why did it say "Derick stopped it"?
> I went to vote after going through the official procedure, but for
> some reason I was suddenly told NO.
> My understanding is that he didn't take part in the discussion on
> "Under Discussion" and didn't even vote.
>
> Why is there such a difference in perception?
>
> Regards
> Yuya
>
> --
> ---------------------------
> Yuya Hamada (tekimen)
> - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info
> - https://github.com/youkidearitai
> -----------------------------
>
>
> Oh, No. I'm sorry, I send only to Tim.
> Resend to Internals.
>
> Regards
> Yuya
>
> --
> ---------------------------
> Yuya Hamada (tekimen)
> - https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info
> - https://github.com/youkidearitai
> -----------------------------

Hi, Internals

Anyway, I thought about this topic few days.
As long as there are people who don't take part in the discussion in
"Under Discussion" phase, I'll say no to this topic.

I was concerned that "Clarify " would put people who are not native
English at a disadvantage (I'm writing use Google translate too).
This will not clear the concerns.
(However, I don't have grant for vote an RFC)

First, we must join to discussion in "Under Discussion" phase.

Regards
Yuya

--=20
---------------------------
Yuya Hamada (tekimen)
- https://tekitoh-memdhoi.info
- https://github.com/youkidearitai
-----------------------------