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To: Juliette Reinders Folmer <php-internals_nospam@adviesenzo.nl>,
	"internals@lists.php.net" <internals@lists.php.net>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Deprecations for PHP 8.5
Thread-Topic: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Deprecations for PHP 8.5
Thread-Index: AQHb64u2H5zq3sHt70yWwR4bMWJ8NLRCZ0aAgBKk0u6AAWrOAIAAF5LK
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 01:46:06 +0000
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From: theodorejb@outlook.com (Theodore Brown)

On Wed, August 6, 2025 at 17:08 Juliette Reinders Folmer wrote:=0A=
> On 6-8-2025 6:21, Theodore Brown wrote:=0A=
>> I just analyzed the top 1500 Composer packages for a couple more of the =
proposed syntax=0A=
>> deprecations, and found the following:=0A=
>>=0A=
>> ## Deprecate non-standard cast names:=0A=
>> 197 non-standard casts in 25 unique packages.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> ## Deprecate backticks as an alias for shell_exec:=0A=
>> 49 backtick operator executions in 10 unique packages.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> I find it ironic that the more widely used of these proposals has the le=
ast opposition to=0A=
>> deprecate (100% in favor so far), while deprecating semicolon-terminated=
 case statements=0A=
>> (which has zero usages in the top 1500 packages) currently has more oppo=
sition than either=0A=
>> of these.=0A=
>=0A=
> Hi Theodore,=0A=
>=0A=
> Thank you for making the effort to gather more impact analysis. I wish th=
is kind of=0A=
> information would be mandatory for all deprecations and I appreciate your=
 efforts to=0A=
> help gather the info, though considering the timing, it probably won't ha=
ve any impact=0A=
> on the vote anymore.=0A=
=0A=
Hi Juliette,=0A=
=0A=
You are welcome. It takes time to download top packages and write analysis =
scripts,=0A=
which is probably why it hasn't been done for more of the deprecation propo=
sals.=0A=
I agree that it's generally nice to have impact data, though.=0A=
=0A=
> I'm not surprised at all by the 0 usage of the semicolon-terminated case =
statements=0A=
> in the top 1500 packages as it is forbidden by PSR2 and a significant num=
ber of the=0A=
> top 1500 packages use PSR2/12/PER.=0A=
> In contrast, PSR2/12/PER does not have any rules about the use of non-sta=
ndard cast=0A=
> names or the use of the backtick operator.=0A=
=0A=
This is not the case. Since PSR-12 the longer type keywords have been forbi=
dden.=0A=
See https://www.php-fig.org/psr/psr-12/#25-keywords-and-types, which states=
:=0A=
=0A=
"Short form of type keywords MUST be used i.e. `bool` instead of `boolean`,=
=0A=
`int` instead of `integer` etc."=0A=
=0A=
>> Perhaps the deprecation seems unnecessary at first, but there is a non-z=
ero cost to=0A=
>> maintaining this legacy alternate syntax in the language:=0A=
>>=0A=
>> 1. It requires projects and coding style guides to choose and document w=
hich syntax to use.=0A=
>> 2. Coding style fixers like PHP-CS-Fixer and PHPCS have to implement and=
 maintain fixers=0A=
>> to enforce one of the syntaxes.=0A=
>> 3. Who knows whether the alternate syntax may block future proposals, as=
 was the case for=0A=
>> the curly brace array/string offset syntax, which being deprecated in PH=
P 7.4 made it=0A=
>> possible to implement property hooks in PHP 8.4.=0A=
>=0A=
> I don't think this reasoning is valid. Code style tools which have suppor=
t for scanning=0A=
> code against PSR2 already handle this and have for a long time. There is =
no significant=0A=
> maintenance costs to that anymore. The costs is in the past.=0A=
>=0A=
> More than anything, even when the syntax would be deprecated and eventual=
ly removed,=0A=
> these tools will still need to keep up support for flagging these things =
as these=0A=
> tools are often enough used on older code bases, which haven't been updat=
ed for the=0A=
> deprecation yet.=0A=
>=0A=
> The deprecation and eventual removal will more likely increase maintenanc=
e costs for=0A=
> these tools, as contributors less versed in the intricacies of PHP will t=
ry to remove=0A=
> support or flag the test code used as a parse error, which then means a m=
aintainer=0A=
> will have to explain this used to be supported by PHP etc etc.=0A=
>=0A=
> It also means more detection tooling needs to be created - like in PHPCom=
patibility -=0A=
> to detect this for years to come.=0A=
>=0A=
> So no, in my estimation, deprecating this syntax will create more work, n=
ot less=0A=
> work for code style fixing libraries and adjacent projects.=0A=
=0A=
Even if there is some short term effort to automate deprecation detection a=
nd fixes,=0A=
these tools will eventually drop support for PHP 8.x, at which point it wil=
l no longer=0A=
be necessary to maintain the fixers. Without the deprecation, there is extr=
a work=0A=
indefinitely to ensure the fixers continue to work with the syntax in new P=
HP versions.=0A=
=0A=
And tooling maintenance is not the only cost. One of the reasons I was moti=
vated to=0A=
include the deprecation proposal was seeing all the discussions over the ye=
ars in=0A=
Drupal related to this. See https://www.drupal.org/project/coding_standards=
/issues/2999367=0A=
(starts in 2018) and the referenced issues.=0A=
=0A=
Deprecating this unnecessary legacy syntax will eventually remove the need =
to=0A=
maintain extra tooling and coding style documentation, and ultimately=0A=
eliminate a source of confusion and inconsistency in the language.=0A=
=0A=
Sincerely,=0A=
Theodore=