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Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 00:10:50 +0200
Message-ID: <CAMzRQTcCfdxgHggQOdpPeOjaBrfJs2cSsS9XLoT1tEWMGFfvAA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Clone with v2
To: Nicolas Grekas <nicolas.grekas+php@gmail.com>
Cc: php internals <internals@lists.php.net>, =?UTF-8?Q?Tim_D=C3=BCsterhus?= <tim@bastelstu.be>
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From: volker@tideways-gmbh.com (Volker Dusch)

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On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 5:49=E2=80=AFPM Nicolas Grekas <nicolas.grekas+php@g=
mail.com>
wrote:

> While I appreciate the effort that went into the proposal and I value the
> technical discussions we've had, I feel the transition to the voting phas=
e
> comes a bit too soon. It seemed like the conversation still had room to
> evolve, and seeing the vote opened while I (and possibly others) were sti=
ll
> forming or refining thoughts is demotivating.
>
> Moments like this make it clear how emotionally demanding participating o=
n
> internals can be. I believe strongly in the importance of open, respectfu=
l,
> and inclusive dialogue - especially when we disagree. That=E2=80=99s how =
we move
> things forward, even if it takes time.
>
> I=E2=80=99m sharing this not to single anyone out, but because I care abo=
ut this
> space and I hope we can keep making the process more collaborative,
> especially around timing and closure of discussions.
>
> Nicolas
>

Thank you for your concerns,

I agree. This RFC was, given how small in scope it was, a lot more
emotionally taxing than I expected going in, and looking back I'm not sure
if it was worth the effort.
Being pulled towards unrelated or out of scope ideas on and off the list
and arguing against scope and syntax creep was quite draining.
I'm very happy we reached a point in the discussion where I feel this RFC
doesn't block any future improvements or additions and can be voted without
negatively impacting anything when accepted. (You might feel different ofc)=
.

> I=E2=80=99m sharing this not to single anyone out, but because I care abo=
ut this
space and I hope we can keep making the process more collaborative,
especially around timing and closure of discussions.

I do feel both me and Tim have been very diligent in answering every
question and concern here, so this is very frustrating and demotivating to
hear indeed.
While the timing of your last reply and our plan to start the vote collided
at bit I do not feel further discussion would have changed anything on the
matter here as we very much didn't want to touch __clone or parameters to
it in this RFC, clearly spelling this out in the rejected features.
So, for me, the best outcome was to vote and be done with this instead of
letting this peter out like the first one. Getting the feedback that is
this not respectful, or inclusive or open is difficult to understand and
painful.

Kind Regards,
Volker

--=20
Volker Dusch
Head of Engineering
Tideways GmbH
K=C3=B6nigswinterer Str. 116
53227 Bonn
https://tideways.io/imprint

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Bonn
Gesch=C3=A4ftsf=C3=BChrer: Benjamin Au=C3=9Fenhofer (geb. Eberlei)
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 22127

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 5:49=E2=80=AFPM Ni=
colas Grekas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nicolas.grekas%2Bphp@gmail.com">nicolas.=
grekas+php@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_qu=
ote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">While I appreciate the effort that went into the =
proposal and I value the technical discussions we&#39;ve had, I feel the tr=
ansition to the voting phase comes a bit too soon. It seemed like the conve=
rsation still had room to evolve, and seeing the vote opened while I (and p=
ossibly others) were still forming or refining thoughts is demotivating.</d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br>Moments like this make it clear how =
emotionally demanding participating on internals can be. I believe strongly=
 in the importance of open, respectful, and inclusive dialogue - especially=
 when we disagree. That=E2=80=99s how we move things forward, even if it ta=
kes time.<br><br>I=E2=80=99m sharing this not to single anyone out, but bec=
ause I care about this space and I hope we can keep making the process more=
 collaborative, especially around timing and closure of discussions.=C2=A0<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Nicolas</div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div>Thank you=C2=A0for you=
r concerns,</div><div><br></div><div>I agree. This RFC was, given how small=
 in scope it was, a lot more emotionally taxing than I expected going in, a=
nd looking back I&#39;m not sure if it was worth the effort.</div><div>Bein=
g pulled towards unrelated or out of scope ideas on and off the list and ar=
guing against scope and syntax creep was quite draining.</div><div>I&#39;m =
very happy we reached a point in the discussion where I feel this RFC doesn=
&#39;t block any future improvements or additions and can be voted without =
negatively impacting anything when accepted. (You might feel different ofc)=
.</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; I=E2=80=99m sharing this not to single anyo=
ne out, but because I care about this space and I hope we can keep making t=
he process more collaborative, especially around timing and closure of disc=
ussions.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I do feel both me and Tim have been=
 very diligent in answering every question and concern here, so this is ver=
y frustrating and demotivating to hear indeed.=C2=A0</div><div>While the ti=
ming of your last reply and our plan to start the vote collided at bit I do=
 not feel further discussion would have changed anything on the matter here=
 as we very much didn&#39;t want to touch __clone or parameters to it in th=
is RFC, clearly spelling this out in the rejected features.</div><div>So, f=
or me, the best outcome was to vote and be done with this instead of lettin=
g this peter out like the first one. Getting the feedback that is this not =
respectful, or inclusive or open is difficult to understand and painful.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Kind Regards,</div><div>Volker=C2=A0</div><div><br><=
/div><span class=3D"gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34=
);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Volker Dusch</div><div sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">He=
ad of Engineering</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,=
sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><div>Tideways GmbH</div><div>K=C3=B6nigswinter=
er Str. 116</div><div>53227 Bonn</div><div><a href=3D"https://tideways.io/i=
mprint" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)" target=3D"_blank">https://tideways.i=
o/imprint</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Sitz der Gesellschaft: Bonn</div=
><div>Gesch=C3=A4ftsf=C3=BChrer: Benjamin Au=C3=9Fenhofer (geb. Eberlei)</d=
iv><div>Registergericht: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 22127</div></div></div></div=
></div>

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