Newsgroups: php.internals
Path: news.php.net
Xref: news.php.net php.internals:127596
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------UuqS69DAs9OwQTENIBXnN0pR"
Message-ID:
 <AM8P250MB0170594B7A9DF62CC5ACB64CE26CA@AM8P250MB0170.EURP250.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 19:15:08 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV][RFC] Deprecate type juggling to and from bool type
 within the function type juggling context
To: Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com>,
 php internals <internals@lists.php.net>
References: <3Yl0UGauXmKqk7s7Hqbv6iaXru-hZHf8Wj6VjwwihgRSaqZo5EZ2ndsOle-ae41C-lvnirynWt6PpuD7UJPL0zPCw18QHFE81Eb--fiiEbc=@gpb.moe>
 <0825f6bb-38c5-47c2-abff-2c1a07eddb96@alec.pl>
 <AxN9iNA-nZUbn0XGHTGbJGhF4oUzSdB7868vlM7PemVzS6YEF3KDhQqQiDQbsYVNShkMbfrioTF5bOxi2FK7OjzhNiyhjA8jsP9iEGCY7ro=@gpb.moe>
 <3149e465-d10b-40a2-a52a-4cdba738b438@alec.pl>
 <BL4P223MB1364A9F7397660868B52A7DCDE6CA@BL4P223MB1364.NAMP223.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <01d26f97-9b22-475d-bcfb-a9fb13b406f2@app.fastmail.com>
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <01d26f97-9b22-475d-bcfb-a9fb13b406f2@app.fastmail.com>
Precedence: bulk
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: AM8P250MB0170:EE_|DB4P250MB0928:EE_
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 39171d8e-4dfa-4143-ecd5-08dda38b5bae
X-MS-Exchange-SLBlob-MailProps:
	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
X-Microsoft-Antispam:
	BCL:0;ARA:14566002|12121999007|7092599006|15080799009|19110799006|8060799009|461199028|5072599009|3412199025|440099028|26104999006;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info:
	=?utf-8?B?dlh1WlBXM2tVS2trK2R6V0I4QkhuNlNxVlY1dkdFbXcrc2p2c0dudzNLeC9O?=
 =?utf-8?B?M3NFRktObWRoR1ZjTVBSNHpZdjhQYlR3ME5ML095NjlPR2dUWHdQb2UwVHll?=
 =?utf-8?B?anZ2cG1MaTc1RGNseFo4QTY4eVhNTytndm5pekxRakZPWVBkd29UYzZWWFFB?=
 =?utf-8?B?dmFNQzIvQUVEYTdabmpuL3Fmelg3clZVMXJ5dW9vMUJNREYrMnJMSGg4cm92?=
 =?utf-8?B?MmJyRWxFNEQrK1lzdVlkTmxjWUU4RUc4RnFSWmhweUtqTTZrcGUyWUJxdVlx?=
 =?utf-8?B?ZmNzb3pUbDBxQlZTUlVOWCtpdVNYVW9OcW5SRUc1THRxWlcwdllBY3NleXYv?=
 =?utf-8?B?K1g0KzFlV3ZDUGdjcWVCOVdpaTBKczM3S1NRa2Vrd3lSNFk4ZVk5amVCbXBx?=
 =?utf-8?B?NVJxRWg0S0RWMTdNZXBhbmpXZG94MmxVeWtqZHVZS2Y2OVZZZzRFUUhNMVgz?=
 =?utf-8?B?OEhwc2hwV3FNYXVsekdsUThuQjBjUXBOMDRndVIyQUxlU1N5c0NvSS9SZG44?=
 =?utf-8?B?ZWJLeTJkRFQwVGdNbForby9lYzRqZUpQZDRuV1hBVTRkN1QzK01sVWRWRklU?=
 =?utf-8?B?RjQ1SGQwU3dWVUk2SElNYlVWN01UdENzZmFaVEE3M3pSTGhTZENiQWdpSnVo?=
 =?utf-8?B?MzFySlhxY3VhUTIxKytHeUxRUGdZNjZ1eWhwdTBIa21XQyt5Qis3aEo5RVhw?=
 =?utf-8?B?dzI1cnRydTJydzJEV0x4amxxRXlLdmR6VXVMcjJIY2tTbDNtYmJFNjMwMHAz?=
 =?utf-8?B?UWgvNWEyb0RyK0NqSlhtYUo2UEFyRGhMMnhOczRzVndGMlBnVkdTZ0ZZQ0d6?=
 =?utf-8?B?cHdkUDB3QzFrTVl6SVFJZ3pRZkY2V2w1YWdxTGxCMG5QdUxQV2lablFkRWxp?=
 =?utf-8?B?Qi9NY21HZzhMckpFaWp0KzlTMURySU1sOWo0NG1DS29QWlN1RFlRbEdsRm1I?=
 =?utf-8?B?ZUNxOHpyeXh6QVV5eWNTL0NWbzVJM2pYWWpkTFJiSnd4S3hlM2JWQzFqY0kz?=
 =?utf-8?B?Zmp4aktjbWFBNUs5VEhYN0NGeEFTenUzNU5Lcit4RmQ2eExsamk0Qk5Pd3d2?=
 =?utf-8?B?WjZvMytzYlY5OXN0dThOeW42bFp4VG8zTHRRV294NmViVTNxZGtKdmZWQ3VN?=
 =?utf-8?B?WGh5WDQzbkRnb25nTys1bGN3N2t5R3VUaGd1SXlUbEJ3RXRTNi9heUg5a2ZY?=
 =?utf-8?B?SjREamwzaFk1WE5aNmNzTjk2WHFzeHFkNmZnbjVtWE1wbC9wUXZ6Q3VlSE1L?=
 =?utf-8?B?c2dmNWFhWlpFemlObExNUnMxWW1uY3Vyb2xNRUI1dnN3Q2JzcHlMQU0xMmtC?=
 =?utf-8?B?M1BXMWMxbU5ZV2M2REIzcmdnZ2thZUp2bUR2TVcyY3ZGWTAzOHdBSE5GZFJh?=
 =?utf-8?B?MjdaeEc0QXE5aHJZNnlRZ3l4UERZZ2g1NU9EVnhUTHh4R042aFNtT0pCdUdJ?=
 =?utf-8?B?SEcxc1Q3aUg5QnQ4Unhsd3ZuS2hkc2E1K2RnWjBVQU9wQVJNK0VPaGNJNWtt?=
 =?utf-8?B?NXZTUkVVSGxidEJQV0lKaDZSekZUS2NsNmFVNkpzbitVa3E0aDliUGFiaWl2?=
 =?utf-8?Q?Bu4J5HRhVrGLDwvMeDPOshISQ=3D?=
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:
	=?utf-8?B?Z1FBS2k4UzBZNzhkVEgrbW9jdXN5blpuUUhKVXY2WHl4NlNRbzlJKzU0T2x6?=
 =?utf-8?B?d2V0QkZId3U4WkpnRHc2YnpUdmxocElKeVYrTUF0ajIzZmdVWG5tNHdOWVc3?=
 =?utf-8?B?UWVXR1Bvd0M0QTJoS01jMU5Bb2paS283RVlCc1g3VTlwc3F0eDRZNzYrL1hk?=
 =?utf-8?B?b1BYWmpGaEVPWFgwMDQ1VCtRTXp4ODkyZVN4RVFJVXcvS2E1ajQvaHNlTXFK?=
 =?utf-8?B?RzdmNFd5Y1hKSTNKOTQ1bHFYbE41QnlaWU9VajJnaVBHc2owUklicFpRNDNP?=
 =?utf-8?B?dVVaajZGd2JGdmxybUY2Szk0VnVEWUhDUWFXVWJ3TkdIRFE2TmN4bUQxclh3?=
 =?utf-8?B?RkZoZXZWaEpHbHN4dE84c0gyUmJoc1hFLy82MXE4ZXlST0F4M2ZSTndFQ2Qz?=
 =?utf-8?B?T1hVWk95UFFsVVFsb0RjUDE3WWNxd01HU3IrSnBMaEVENnJOZC9uSjRHbCtw?=
 =?utf-8?B?NFQxL2RsVEVGNk8zSHJ5R2NSdmNpbCtCK3NNRmJhcXlHWHh1U3p0MjdtMTBE?=
 =?utf-8?B?OThhbmV1VjY1MXV3VW1OMGkwOWxiOWIyS0hzTjcyTUo2dCtxZ1BQemN3Smgz?=
 =?utf-8?B?Q08xQjlFSHZYcTY4b3hQR3NKTENGem5COXpOWVl0Zjl5MUxPL2w3Mkg5SHB2?=
 =?utf-8?B?aVNkTUNSY1lPWllyb2xVY3JIUFFkNFdPUEk4T3lKdmdjRW5wYWhCZTA3RlRX?=
 =?utf-8?B?bU9LL2dXandvSTV4cm1DK2xRTUZvdVFmdytvT3RDejBlSUlhV1ZMbSszQnRh?=
 =?utf-8?B?Y1hIdWZod1ZpbUFucmxaODRRaWwwR3FlTkhBRWJLSFo0dFpqUXNWNmxmbXZI?=
 =?utf-8?B?SUMwS08zZXh0ekFGeW04cy84bitEZ2dQbHgrd3pNTUtXQ0E0cTNpQzJrTG5j?=
 =?utf-8?B?SGRwcEVBSEJzWkNkdUVzcFR0eFZIVEhxSTJxd1B0TXF4MzYyaWk2L29qcVJG?=
 =?utf-8?B?V1VwVkdJNnUzWU9hclByT3JabW5tN0lxU1NRYmV5Q0NlOVVGdzNPOFhTc3Bs?=
 =?utf-8?B?aGNuRkwvVzBYMkJtQjFzU2JnY1dIdy9xNW0wZk9wd1JDUE1XTnplU1VGWlRr?=
 =?utf-8?B?WWw4THp3TUUvMFlvZmpkTU1qdkJrNldqTlJpSnBRZWdBK1F4SUlyQitwTnhC?=
 =?utf-8?B?TExSK0FqSXl3YjU3NlVLZ2ZBMUJtOXVjV3loaEJKTzNQOVhpeldDSXE0SG9Z?=
 =?utf-8?B?MzlJWmtJa1FON1Fzemd2bXd6cGl5QkUwb2h0TmpTTktOazJQOUZXcDdrUVA2?=
 =?utf-8?B?M0JwNHp0SEhTM3ZNR01ialFtN2N2YkZBM2x0TXp2WTJUOFBPQUszK3gzOEov?=
 =?utf-8?B?em42K1ZqeklDeG1yU1JOVzlFaHV6Kyt4WDN2Kzc4cWpKV0ptUGFlZHFseU1M?=
 =?utf-8?B?YldpR3k1WktMZjBscjlmN3dvZllSNTltOXVvYlcxQ0xrT2h0SWhIVHlFL0RV?=
 =?utf-8?B?akFEbFZQc0ttakM5YkVzR2IxQkxIeGprdnlRWG9wdFgxRy9ES0hBWFdwVHFC?=
 =?utf-8?B?eDRMTmUyMTlsbC9NbklGaGJCeHFZYlhCMVVONHlyNGt4b2RSRXdSdTY1T0tv?=
 =?utf-8?B?aWs2cDhkYXZpZzVWTnZsYjljUHA1dXFqTnEyeEV4ZHZlRUJ5QVNrZzlhWlkw?=
 =?utf-8?B?c0pVbVhwQzRVazZRU3hKZHVWcFJtRGFYMHQ0VUhNVllHV3JCUHFHdDdBaUJz?=
 =?utf-8?B?UEpEcHQ3L3dxc0Jzc1NuZGV2Mjljd0orZC9EYkpiajBINGwyM00zRkkvM1BS?=
 =?utf-8?Q?ADc6w+zdI9Fn/B6Hbw=3D?=
X-OriginatorOrg: sct-15-20-8534-15-msonline-outlook-5f066.templateTenant
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 39171d8e-4dfa-4143-ecd5-08dda38b5bae
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM8P250MB0170.EURP250.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jun 2025 17:15:09.4540
 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg:
	00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB4P250MB0928
From: bobwei9@hotmail.com (Bob Weinand)

--------------UuqS69DAs9OwQTENIBXnN0pR
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 4.6.2025 18:46:58, Larry Garfield wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2025, at 11:16 AM, Theodore Brown wrote:
>> On Wed, June 4, 2025 at 09:37 Aleksander Machniak wrote:
>>
>>> On 4.06.2025 16:03, G. P. Banyard wrote:
>>>> I don't understand what you mean.
>>>> The purpose is to deprecate the behaviour in 8.5 so that it can be removed in PHP 9.
>>>> We try to not break behaviour with no prior warning.
>>>> Could you clarify what you mean?
>>> I meant to move the deprecation to PHP 9.0. I feel the impact of
>>> deprecation itself in this case might be significant.
>> You feel there might be a lot of code passing floats, ints, or strings to
>> `bool` parameters? I'm doubtful this is the case, since static analysis tools
>> and IDEs are in much more widespread use nowadays.
>>
>> In my experience passing non-boolean values to a `bool` parameter almost always
>> indicates a bug, and it would be valuable to get a deprecation notice sooner
>> rather than later so these mistakes can be fixed.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Theodore
> The one place I can see it being used now legitimately is MySQL's TINYINT pseudo-bool columns.  If you're mapping your query results into an object (please always do this), then you probably want to cast that into to a bool, and currently weak mode would let you do that implicitly.
>
> I can't think of a case where a string or float magically casting to a bool is reasonable.
>
> --Larry Garfield

Basically every time you use external inputs. Maybe it's a $_GET 
parameter? I mean, I absolutely do not care whether 
$_GET["showcomments"] is actually 0, foo or 1.23. My code will only 
assign showcomments=0 or showcomments=1. But all I want is a bool. I 
absolutely do not care about the actual contents. If the language warns 
me about that it's likely that I will just be annoyed when it happens 
occasionally in production when some user tries to play around with the 
parameter values. And then I'll explicitly add the cast. But for all 
purposes, it's a plain annoyance.

If you desire to be annoyed, be my guest and use strict types.

For me the whole point of weak types is so that I can easily and 
comfortably work with arbitrary inputs. So this RFC gets really in my 
way here and I'm going to vote no on this.

I could get on board with making true|false decay to bool, whenever they 
appear in an union type. But that's - for me - not related to bool in 
type juggling.

Bob

--------------UuqS69DAs9OwQTENIBXnN0pR
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html><html><head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4.6.2025 18:46:58, Larry Garfield
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:01d26f97-9b22-475d-bcfb-a9fb13b406f2@app.fastmail.com">
      <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">On Wed, Jun 4, 2025, at 11:16 AM, Theodore Brown wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">On Wed, June 4, 2025 at 09:37 Aleksander Machniak wrote:

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">On 4.06.2025 16:03, G. P. Banyard wrote:
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">I don't understand what you mean.
The purpose is to deprecate the behaviour in 8.5 so that it can be removed in PHP 9.
We try to not break behaviour with no prior warning.
Could you clarify what you mean?
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">
I meant to move the deprecation to PHP 9.0. I feel the impact of
deprecation itself in this case might be significant.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">
You feel there might be a lot of code passing floats, ints, or strings to
`bool` parameters? I'm doubtful this is the case, since static analysis tools
and IDEs are in much more widespread use nowadays.

In my experience passing non-boolean values to a `bool` parameter almost always
indicates a bug, and it would be valuable to get a deprecation notice sooner
rather than later so these mistakes can be fixed.

Regards,  
Theodore
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">
The one place I can see it being used now legitimately is MySQL's TINYINT pseudo-bool columns.  If you're mapping your query results into an object (please always do this), then you probably want to cast that into to a bool, and currently weak mode would let you do that implicitly.

I can't think of a case where a string or float magically casting to a bool is reasonable.

--Larry Garfield</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p>Basically every time you use external inputs. Maybe it's a $_GET
      parameter? I mean, I absolutely <span style="white-space: pre-wrap">do not care whether $_GET[&quot;showcomments&quot;] is actually 0, foo or 1.23. My code will only assign showcomments=0 or showcomments=1. But all I want is a bool. I absolutely do not care about the actual contents. If the language warns me about that it's likely that I will just be annoyed when it happens occasionally in production when some user tries to play around with the parameter values. And then I'll explicitly add the cast. But for all purposes, it's a plain annoyance.</span></p>
    <p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap">If you desire to be annoyed, be my guest and use strict types.</span></p>
    <p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap">For me the whole point of weak types is so that I can easily and comfortably work with arbitrary inputs. So this RFC gets really in my way here and I'm going to vote no on this.</span></p>
    <p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap">
</span></p>
    <p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap">I could get on board with making true|false decay to bool, whenever they appear in an union type. But that's - for me - not related to bool in type juggling.</span></p>
    <p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap">
</span></p>
    <p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap">Bob
</span></p>
  </body>
</html>

--------------UuqS69DAs9OwQTENIBXnN0pR--