Newsgroups: php.internals
Path: news.php.net
Xref: news.php.net php.internals:127426
To: Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com>, php internals
	<internals@lists.php.net>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [RFC] Clone with v2
Thread-Topic: [PHP-DEV] Re: [RFC] Clone with v2
Thread-Index: AQHbyKub/o4d+9pfyE+KjmOJcRmhMLPdI6CAgADuxwCAAHcWNg==
Date: Thu, 22 May 2025 12:13:06 +0000
Message-ID:
 <BL4P223MB1364FC694E618AE3D0960346DE99A@BL4P223MB1364.NAMP223.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References:
 <CAMzRQTdePFXUMWO38g=gQA2vbqL5zp=o1cPt00ec41g95xys=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMzRQTe_vn1a-ji9M2NXnBgJm3eHOGTHozWpM1jGzOht_sNs4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2f30cae4add309021e18d0f359a1814e@bastelstu.be>
 <9aa91498-b224-4a46-8c7e-21ae8a9c58a7@app.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <9aa91498-b224-4a46-8c7e-21ae8a9c58a7@app.fastmail.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
msip_labels:
x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL4P223MB1364:EE_|DS4PPF581BDA14F:EE_
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3e78aff7-d9b3-43fb-0b52-08dd992a0283
x-ms-exchange-slblob-mailprops:
 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
x-microsoft-antispam:
 BCL:0;ARA:14566002|19110799006|15080799009|8062599006|15030799003|8060799009|7092599006|461199028|4302099013|10035399007|440099028|3412199025|102099032|1602099012;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info:
 =?Windows-1252?Q?Li8mR5dBwNufv2S/D4WljSEvW0Hnmbi5URIfVpgSMmd5+PDvLk/FwMuu?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?XZf+EAhAFjRDXM6t4A9wzFMUiAXc9xkmtirTg7OY7g5YltLs1t0TkKr1?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?RtsrPUh+PlntuNnYAFoWr80Hv34krhDnp/26QKCWYac9VSFDt2/+3Cg4?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?VkUQ9Vq4f+sPGi+f38e4EkMkGN2AN8pLGLEDaP+gHHiSz5S/62MfCde7?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?YX9zrozJBQk6NtAMg7Cto73CyYqD0K02SEA+7JtQ1uPDtRus04v/XBt+?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?wNJwXEnkWjX5+6XVDWhy+VG03mzElQqeBf+JR3Nk5aSiUki9yLi+95wC?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?JODXysZMRkQUHwpFUi9g+sJXdzny++DviDsBF2+lxviFRooSY4JpKkKQ?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?nRRJf5epHlWfPztHuJkL2bvvhzXpZkOJ/HdF1/xT4rGeTMgyzeGwNo6P?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?p+7YGA2SvwrtLUxs4pONtbdrYg/0xAOOjjZd70HoeUTYsvoR9bG8WgGx?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?vlgjrvLnfHDXmI7TURREuizhZEh9eBlEmrEhoOjHydLijlJQ21GbTtXF?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?qvBEpX2lnq6G0xkGO50yz54/Rc2lQ3l7NQbMF1g97LkRpw5hwl54rDD+?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?q7xDGLPRYJ27G1qVeyhIwnW5xinbGDEIUFlPOoEMmzTnEGR0cU8rP7lf?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?foTH96/7xEeWzvvsoGGDo7KbtX+HD7uT46si9yEmUa9eKdWEtyuLgDR0?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?+vwUCWRwOB+QX7vv1q7kgSIiMrmlf7rQDitW/7bP22JHjFn82UhA0LlP?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?t8Af+IYsvn95Z8wbtSW0P2PBJlWVCwKiTGYA5Mzi2IJVFQxgjn0Sbds5?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?n8jMfBJHCACITsEuFPSmmt93DiV7heqA6FzZWZEq42Ai4xDJoWR8sdNd?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?7CB+lfQxXKb0wN66RV4uFRD2+y9R10LRc9g43wWVf/1ey8mCTgggFykM?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?kH1RKb9kSVj7qZKyhdBT4YQb8rLASHpaVmR2RY8tXt8w73dOdUv0RpvJ?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?IB0gycqOyvkQicZmIOXdE/owF5K1u1o33SDy70i0chZFWYUxINBWL98K?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?o5dAHqH4NalF92u45tZdJdJr5el5x8uCkzwadQwFjlE5FWHsHYpHZC4M?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?PiVHD5kFu47JlxSsKV5gNLAmNBb7ySJ67mt6L/ZITtylGpY1nOJXNk7w?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?GSvrV1HNLJEbkrMeRWQAB76tgkrg+302rTNAvKGJBIuOadTNMxNU6LY7?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?5ri3o7E36JZ1/yPSByeGRQpZq9aNXOj4iiNl1ps+nNCMHibK?=
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0:
 =?Windows-1252?Q?acMOZ38EOmHI5W13pH6VqIFiVKK8rC1eGWa7w/iERiUkaNPzrtUUoVhJ?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?ricG8tcyrTwbeaEyguGwUtFU7fQLY16+642hwV0vWP9NEOd8GXBZbK5h?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?y2AM3VorxjtzFspZPGTQR9Cob5W6GbpCeiatMyl65I4UHcTcaUfVn7nG?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?v7yVY0diUaKoE5KJbNknVg55IG9fT7UBt9FskJExzYcL7le5d/ttzKkX?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?nQpT8k+ivJnyh0/KvYaGxC71aGEiUPcbYvyNwR0cE9JzmzOjcd8W6Ht9?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?WjMI479ns3tHELwaqxiUfb8b8eRD9ORBWUTEBKrtCvfRRFpqdURvnVo4?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?j3AETEt4dzMEVYfTL39kbkq7+sti83lAW2cx34CHcYSW2dudit83sCTK?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?/QlBlgH1ie44Dmv453SAeidcIoM4quH6f06IUXttPoVzk60B3kITVa20?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?YIkaoq5lQ4qqgu3ZlRzEb1pRm2L6RUth4c8mjqf3rcULVoV70SP+5oe3?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?K4Bd+bYKaDZuU8dClEaCfNxR1bZb5ptm2xJQ4O0ilxA8xbc1+cbV0cpM?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?mup4NREpV11RAqiizh60RY7JQ2TG68TkYz/NthEfa3zJdOLdEDSHZ4Pf?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?tM+NjuqY72pWkg+JVLjokPrhNVtW7PrDJ+WSbPXcD98vF+9tQLZymbjI?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?7oILIdaK5govcOzVpOU03ZRwJR2tP89Lew1nB6jNN52C0e12B23b89jM?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?WXNSmVyqpeLzH0D7DH5ASkG25au3Nk7S19uHPXLa1ZP3t0algZyxWndj?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?8TRaq1M6eNrr5Dw2A9zzjroATTCTEo9uLYjiVKXP6Gu+GN3XMGmjxybI?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?XCQqQfX8aOsy3Zy+Bpxg+fGBaNToOBH3DlrUh7kU3exb0KBsNfQLJHLf?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?l7YIKun162LcLQ4zVOxtCPtWaUlUevl2tc4UD0vFhrbW73mdAkrGLkWU?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?LHmbdMTKMwWJdmMqcYP8I8FJSmmFYFjha5zyqo8EPf82GG07A5SG/DVA?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?eedRM4xyzMrzqpL6Xdt5zGRbcU9hDZKGoJ2qjGN2wMwdjYsBrzjVItAB?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?Qz2rpZl1avoQDln1POu3tuK1BsHdUvC/eWL/j0PbREiRwScOCdTTuBhg?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?LyMExSEBxMCt0zxFPr6ZbCUcYMFNdeNHovoI9/Hz8PbBAapNixfUzu8+?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?kkC2PVn88gBwWEZksJTNsTVSBAB9Zv9AWVbDRQDTCN9FYjELavtQuNp5?=
 =?Windows-1252?Q?ggDtQLY+T4PrAW3FoOfjzOYkeHs=3D?=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Precedence: bulk
list-help: <mailto:internals+help@lists.php.net
list-unsubscribe: <mailto:internals+unsubscribe@lists.php.net>
list-post: <mailto:internals@lists.php.net>
List-Id: internals.lists.php.net
x-ms-reactions: disallow
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BL4P223MB1364.NAMP223.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3e78aff7-d9b3-43fb-0b52-08dd992a0283
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 May 2025 12:13:06.5942
 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DS4PPF581BDA14F
From: theodorejb@outlook.com (Theodore Brown)

On Wed, May 21, 2025 at 23:27 Larry Garfield wrote:=0A=
> On Wed, May 21, 2025, at 9:13 AM, Tim D=FCsterhus wrote:=0A=
>> Am 2025-05-19 12:48, schrieb Volker Dusch:=0A=
>>> We're still looking for feedback on the ...variadic approach to the=0A=
>>> Syntax:=0A=
>>> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/clone_with_v2#open_issues, as we only got one=
=0A=
>>> reply so far on the topic.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> ...=0A=
>> *Some* property name being completely incompatible with =93clone with=94=
 (no=0A=
>> matter how the first parameter is going to be called) is a limitation=0A=
>> that should not exist, it feels like a feature that is broken by design=
=0A=
>> and I think I really would hate it if the documentation of this RFC=0A=
>> would need a =93Caution: It is not possible to reassign a property calle=
d=0A=
>> '$object', due to a parameter name conflict=94.=0A=
> =0A=
> I completely disagree here.=A0 The __ prefix is sufficient to solve the i=
ssue.=0A=
> A double underscore prefix has been understood to mean "internal to PHP, =
magic=0A=
> here" for at least 20 years.=A0 The chances of someone having a property =
called=0A=
> $__object are virtually nil, and if they do, they're already treading on =
naming=0A=
> that's reserved for PHP's use anyway so if it breaks, it's their own faul=
t.=0A=
=0A=
Is the __ prefix part of the current proposal? Currently the RFC examples h=
ave=0A=
the parameter name as simply `$object`. Even if the parameter is renamed to=
=0A=
`$__object`, there would still have to be a warning in the docs that it isn=
't=0A=
possible to use the function to set a property named `__object`, which I ag=
ree=0A=
with Tim is a limitation that should not exist.=0A=
=0A=
For people who want to consistently use named arguments for all parameters,=
=0A=
(rather than all parameters except the first one) the code would look like:=
=0A=
=0A=
    $obj =3D clone(=0A=
        __object: $this,=0A=
        foo: 'bar',=0A=
        object: $baz,=0A=
    );=0A=
=0A=
Is this API really better than with a simple array parameter?=0A=
=0A=
    $obj =3D clone($this, [=0A=
        'foo' =3D> 'bar',=0A=
        'object' =3D> $baz,=0A=
    ]);=0A=
=0A=
Using an array results in fewer lines of code, and the distinction between=
=0A=
the object being cloned and the properties being set is much clearer.=0A=
=0A=
I get that it may be annoying to quote array keys, but to me this is not=0A=
as bad as the confusing variadic API. In the future PHP could get a simpler=
=0A=
array syntax like `[foo: 'bar']`, which would benefit far more functions th=
an=0A=
only `clone()`.=0A=
=0A=
Kind regards,=0A=
Theodore=