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In-Reply-To: <CF275E74-F6AE-4357-8586-2FF17DC84FB5@rwec.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2025 07:09:05 -0400
Message-ID: <CAEUnE0eR-0c=pDxgFrB4n60rGescZDVzOgb4uJbYK1aLvQE8=A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Module or Class Visibility, Season 2
To: PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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From: tendoaki@gmail.com (Michael Morris)

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On Wed, May 21, 2025 at 8:27=E2=80=AFAM Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] <imsop.php@rw=
ec.co.uk>
wrote:

>
> So if we can come up with a solution where only the WordPress plugins nee=
d
> to be changed, and you can use whatever dependencies you want without
> waiting for them to be changed to a new way of working, is that not a goo=
d
> thing?


Yes, and that's all I think is needed here. I could modify plugin code if I
needed to. The majority of developers capable of doing this have left
WordPress in disgust - I did too, but I needed the work. Since I have to
work with it I'd like to make it more sane. One major step in that
direction is the Timber library which bridges WP to Twig and gets rid of
that god damned loop architecture they think is the bees knees but in
reality is an antipattern and untestable spaghetti nightmare.


> I've tried several times to explain why I think Linux containers are a
> good analogy; I'm not sure if you didn't understand, or just didn't agree=
,
> so I don't know what else I can say.
>

I have no disagreement with that, but it's an implementation detail. I'm
not there yet - I'm just trying to describe what I think is needed from
outside the engine.


> Looking closely, I see I did make one honest mistake: in your example, th=
e
> WordPress plugins are A and B, not B and C. So my sentence should have re=
ad
> "A and B are one kind of thing, but D is a different kind of thing".


That's what set me off the most and I over-reacted. To you and to the list
at large, I apologize. I'm just frustrated - I feel like a five year old
trying to explain a problem to a physicist.



On Wed, May 21, 2025 at 6:09=E2=80=AFPM Hammed Ajao <hamiegold@gmail.com> w=
rote:

>
> Anyone familiar with C++'s friend keyword? It=E2=80=99s not a direct repl=
acement
> for modules, but it solves similar problems =E2=80=94 allowing trusted cl=
asses or
> functions to access private/protected members without making them public.
>
>
Friend has been brought up before and I believe it was in at least one RFC
before and voted down. That doesn't mean the issue can't be revisited, but
look into the archive and see if my memory is right and if so why was it
voted down before? IIRC it's tied to the fact PHP doesn't have a notion of
namespace level visibility. Classes and functions outside of classes must
be public in the current architecture.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote g=
mail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, May 21,=
 2025 at 8:27=E2=80=AFAM Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:imsop.=
php@rwec.co.uk">imsop.php@rwec.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
So if we can come up with a solution where only the WordPress plugins need =
to be changed, and you can use whatever dependencies you want without waiti=
ng for them to be changed to a new way of working, is that not a good thing=
?</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, and that&#39;s all I think is needed=
 here. I could modify plugin code if I needed to. The majority of developer=
s capable of doing this have left WordPress in disgust - I did too, but I n=
eeded the work. Since I have to work with it I&#39;d like to make it more s=
ane. One major step in that direction is the Timber library which bridges W=
P to Twig and gets rid of that god damned loop architecture they think is t=
he bees knees but in reality is an antipattern and untestable spaghetti nig=
htmare.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x">
<br>
I&#39;ve tried several times to explain why I think Linux containers are a =
good analogy; I&#39;m not sure if you didn&#39;t understand, or just didn&#=
39;t agree, so I don&#39;t know what else I can say.<br></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>I have no disagreement with that, but it&#39;s an implementat=
ion detail. I&#39;m not there yet - I&#39;m just trying to describe what I =
think is needed from outside the engine.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Looking closely, I see I did make one=
 honest mistake: in your example, the WordPress plugins are A and B, not B =
and C. So my sentence should have read &quot;A and B are one kind of thing,=
 but D is a different kind of thing&quot;.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
That&#39;s what set me off the most and I over-reacted. To you and to the l=
ist at large, I apologize. I&#39;m just frustrated - I feel like a five yea=
r old trying to explain a problem to a physicist.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div=
><div><br class=3D"gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed,=
 May 21, 2025 at 6:09=E2=80=AFPM Hammed Ajao &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hamiegol=
d@gmail.com">hamiegold@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Anyone familiar with C++&#39;s friend keyw=
ord? It=E2=80=99s not a direct replacement for modules, but it solves simil=
ar problems =E2=80=94 allowing trusted classes or functions to access priva=
te/protected members without making them public.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br=
></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Friend has been brought up be=
fore and I believe it was in at least one RFC before and voted down. That d=
oesn&#39;t mean the issue can&#39;t be revisited, but look into the archive=
 and see if my memory is right and if so why was it voted down before? IIRC=
 it&#39;s tied to the fact PHP doesn&#39;t have a notion of namespace level=
 visibility. Classes and functions outside of classes must be public in the=
 current architecture.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div>

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