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Date: Wed, 07 May 2025 23:23:55 +0100
To: internals@lists.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Modules, again.
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From: imsop.php@rwec.co.uk ("Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]")



On 7 May 2025 21:51:29 BST, Michael Morris <tendoaki@gmail=2Ecom> wrote:
>On Wed, May 7, 2025 at 3:24=E2=80=AFPM Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] <imsop=2Ephp=
@rwec=2Eco=2Euk>
>wrote:
>
>Other libraries have the means to import into a namespace because their
>namespaces aren't just a quick and dirty string replacement=2E  I've even
>proposed such a long, long time ago - allowing namespace to be the second
>argument of require, only to have that shot down as "require isn't a
>function=2E" or some such=2E


I've no idea what you're saying here, sorry=2E I never mentioned autoloadi=
ng in my message, because it's largely irrelevant=2E What's relevant is how=
 you identify something that's been declared (e=2Eg=2E a class)=2E


>> The main exception, as you have pointed out, is plugin architectures
>> like WordPress, where the plugin might want to "privately" use some
>> library without impacting the host application and other plugins=2E
>
>
>It's not just WordPress=2E


That is why I said "plugin architectures like WordPress"=2E I am absolutel=
y aware that it is an example, not something unique=2E


>I've seen Strauss in action=2E It's called monkey-typing=2E  Other langua=
ges
>support this sort of monkey typing to some degree - PHP can only do it by
>doing an expensive and error prone programmatic keyword search of the
>source files and transforming them=2E The end result has to be shipped wi=
th
>the module, severing its dependencies from getting security updates=2E


So, you don't like the first example I happened to pick in a 10-second sea=
rch=2E=2E=2E More interestingly:

Firstly, can PHP do something to make the rewriting easier? I've no idea, =
but if so, let's talk about it=2E

Secondly, can the rewriting be done at install time rather than in advance=
? I see no reason why not; seems like something to tinker with in a Compose=
r plugin, off-topic on this list=2E


>I *do* think PHP would benefit from some native concept of "module" for
>> other reasons, e=2Eg=2E marking internal components, optimising across
>> multiple files=2E I *do not* think that ES/JS/TS is a suitable model to
>> look at, because it is starting from a fundamentally different concept
>> of what a declaration is=2E
>>
>
>So what do you suggest then?  Go's model?  Rusts? Gradle or Maven from
>Java? Shooting down stuff is trivial, finding solutions is the real work=
=2E


I suggest starting with what we already have: build modules on top of name=
spaces, not as something new and orthogonal; and leave package *management*=
 (version resolution, installation, etc) to userlan, while recognising that=
 Composer is overwhelmingly the most popular implementation=2E

That probably means that rewriting namespace prefixes remains the only way=
 to isolate "private" versions of a dependency, and I am totally fine with =
that=2E


Rowan Tommins
[IMSoP]