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Date: Tue, 6 May 2025 02:33:41 -0400
Message-ID: <CAEUnE0eY7N_AtPeOm+HhU3yEEWfQDM87dVOkEu1o5cCaMg34hw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Modules, again.
To: PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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From: tendoaki@gmail.com (Michael Morris)

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Resetting and moving the proposal writeup to a github hosted markdown file
here:
https://github.com/michael-lloyd-morris/php-modules-rfc/blob/main/php-modul=
es.md

On Mon, May 5, 2025 at 12:44=E2=80=AFAM Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.=
com>
wrote:

>
>
> So before you get indignant and call me a liar ("You're 4 for 4 on
> falsehoods"), perhaps consider how someone you know is "more intelligent"
> than this can come away from your post understanding it so utterly
> differently than what you intended.
>

I'm sorry for doing that.


>
> From your follow up statements, it seems that what you are proposing is
> not "modules" in any sense used in any language I am familiar with.
> Rather, you're proposing a symbol table hack to get around PHP's inabilit=
y
> to load two symbols with the same name, and using module terminology to
> inaccurately describe it.  (And thread terminology as well.)  That is, it
> seems your intent is that I can import arbitrary code from an arbitrary
> package and shunt it off to a separate symbol table.  But it's not clear =
if
> you intend for the package author to have to do anything to enable that.
> Your answers seem contradictory.
>
> For a concrete example, I'll offer my AttributeUtils library:
> https://github.com/Crell/AttributeUtils/tree/master/src
>
> It has a whole bunch of interfaces, plus a few classes.  We'll focus on a
> subset of them for the moment.
>
> Analyzer.php (this is the main class someone uses)
> AttributeParser.php (this is an internal class used by Analyzer, you
> should never use it directly)
> FromReflectionClass.php (an interface that other libraries implement to
> trigger certain functionality in Analyzer)
>
>

In answer to your question - assuming the module file is at the root of
your src directory.

<?php
module \Crell\AnalyzerModule;

export [
  \Crell\Analyzer,
  \Crell\FromReflectionClass
];
?>


> Say I want to modularize this library, under your proposal.  What would I=
,
> as the library author, do exactly?  Anything?  How can I mark
> AttributeParser as internal-only and thou-shalt-not-use-if-you're-not-me?
> (That's the most common value of module systems, and the one most people =
in
> PHP seem to think of, from what I've seen.)
>
> That library is used extensively by Serde (another of my libraries).  If =
I
> modularize AttributeUtils, then what changes does Serde need to make?


On that end

<?php
require_module <path_to_Crell\AnalyzerModule>;

$analyzer =3D new \Crell\AnalyzerModule::Analyzer();
?>

If the autoloader gets updated to identify and properly load modules
(outside the scope of this RFC) the require_module statement can be
dropped.  If a use statement is desired it looks like this

<?php
use \Crell\AnalyzerModule::Analyzer;  // This is legal for modules, not for
static classes.

$analyzer =3D new Analyzer();
?>



> What would it get out of doing so?
>

Nothing much - it just wouldn't be able to see as deeply into the
AttributeUtils code.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Resetting and moving the proposal wr=
iteup to a github hosted markdown file here:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github=
.com/michael-lloyd-morris/php-modules-rfc/blob/main/php-modules.md" target=
=3D"_blank">https://github.com/michael-lloyd-morris/php-modules-rfc/blob/ma=
in/php-modules.md</a></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote g=
mail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, May 5, =
2025 at 12:44=E2=80=AFAM Larry Garfield &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:larry@garfiel=
dtech.com">larry@garfieldtech.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
So before you get indignant and call me a liar (&quot;You&#39;re 4 for 4 on=
 falsehoods&quot;), perhaps consider how someone you know is &quot;more int=
elligent&quot; than this can come away from your post understanding it so u=
tterly differently than what you intended.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>I&#39;m sorry for doing that.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
From your follow up statements, it seems that what you are proposing is not=
 &quot;modules&quot; in any sense used in any language I am familiar with.=
=C2=A0 Rather, you&#39;re proposing a symbol table hack to get around PHP&#=
39;s inability to load two symbols with the same name, and using module ter=
minology to inaccurately describe it.=C2=A0 (And thread terminology as well=
.)=C2=A0 That is, it seems your intent is that I can import arbitrary code =
from an arbitrary package and shunt it off to a separate symbol table.=C2=
=A0 But it&#39;s not clear if you intend for the package author to have to =
do anything to enable that.=C2=A0 Your answers seem contradictory.<br>
<br>
For a concrete example, I&#39;ll offer my AttributeUtils library: <a href=
=3D"https://github.com/Crell/AttributeUtils/tree/master/src" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/Crell/AttributeUtils/tree/master/=
src</a><br>
<br>
It has a whole bunch of interfaces, plus a few classes.=C2=A0 We&#39;ll foc=
us on a subset of them for the moment.<br>
<br>
Analyzer.php (this is the main class someone uses)<br>
AttributeParser.php (this is an internal class used by Analyzer, you should=
 never use it directly)<br>
FromReflectionClass.php (an interface that other libraries implement to tri=
gger certain functionality in Analyzer)<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div><br></div><div>In answer to your =
question - assuming the module file is at the root of your src directory.</=
div><div><br></div><div>&lt;?php=C2=A0</div><div>module \Crell\AnalyzerModu=
le;</div><div><br></div><div>export [</div><div>=C2=A0 \Crell\Analyzer,</di=
v><div>=C2=A0 \Crell\FromReflectionClass</div><div>];</div><div>?&gt;</div>=
</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Say I want to modularize this library, under your proposal.=C2=A0 What woul=
d I, as the library author, do exactly?=C2=A0 Anything?=C2=A0 How can I mar=
k AttributeParser as internal-only and thou-shalt-not-use-if-you&#39;re-not=
-me?=C2=A0 (That&#39;s the most common value of module systems, and the one=
 most people in PHP seem to think of, from what I&#39;ve seen.)<br>
<br>
That library is used extensively by Serde (another of my libraries).=C2=A0 =
If I modularize AttributeUtils, then what changes does Serde need to make?=
=C2=A0 </blockquote><div><br></div><div><div>On that end</div><div><br></di=
v><div>&lt;?php</div><div>require_module &lt;path_to_Crell\AnalyzerModule&g=
t;;</div><div><br></div><div>$analyzer =3D new \Crell\AnalyzerModule::Analy=
zer();</div><div>?&gt;</div><div><br></div><div>If the autoloader gets upda=
ted to identify and properly load modules (outside the scope of this RFC) t=
he require_module statement can be dropped.=C2=A0 If a use statement is des=
ired it looks like this</div><div><br></div><div>&lt;?php</div><div>use \Cr=
ell\AnalyzerModule::Analyzer;=C2=A0 // This is legal for modules, not for s=
tatic classes.</div><div><br></div><div>$analyzer =3D new Analyzer();</div>=
<div>?&gt;</div></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex">What would it get out of doing so?<br></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>Nothing much - it just wouldn&#39;t be able to see=
 as deeply into the AttributeUtils code.</div><div><br></div></div></div>

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