Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:127280 X-Original-To: internals@lists.php.net Delivered-To: internals@lists.php.net Received: from php-smtp4.php.net (php-smtp4.php.net [45.112.84.5]) by lists.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463A21A00BC for ; Sun, 4 May 2025 12:12:52 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=php.net; s=mail; t=1746360637; bh=nj26X/Gff82Vg9vyIdIPejGDy7D1B8f4RYgNtViw18A=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc:From; b=XG+xkQjfztocsRmVM5onipHxVX+Rke9wqooelMKkxrUHVvW0CiLs6aZqoIRVLRZk4 Ip61JBGhI5uXUWPz4xiewfqsT93W4D/V0xYfhWhQ2im6cEj11GU9S876VkaXvbLpgJ HLhBUz82elyWoRFAN2XL5NiDPpYqDhnDp0BMCZb+qZjcG718mQjZmGqHVL8NykwkaJ /0n0FrCemPFPUK6Yks5ePCLkBJYtj19XFotw/4Qy4RVQlLvs5M85vaSbL5ddux6Dch CsimR5QLuy7YWJ0kYQs30uga1eAQS6gs40am4RcBtacOU9ANklMX9SsNJuh5/m4qmo 7nxF+GtOb3bQQ== Received: from php-smtp4.php.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by php-smtp4.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4417A18065D for ; Sun, 4 May 2025 12:10:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 (2022-12-13) on php-smtp4.php.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,DMARC_PASS,FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2,SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=4.0.0 X-Spam-Virus: Error (Cannot connect to unix socket '/var/run/clamav/clamd.ctl': connect: Connection refused) X-Envelope-From: Received: from mail-wr1-f49.google.com (mail-wr1-f49.google.com [209.85.221.49]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by php-smtp4.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Sun, 4 May 2025 12:10:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wr1-f49.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-39c1efc457bso2317784f8f.2 for ; Sun, 04 May 2025 05:12:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1746360770; x=1746965570; darn=lists.php.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=nVRDZHpi4heZQVjBBZzTcucOspSCkASy80nTyKQz56s=; b=Y0K310WJ79fPsRqsI0HbtKFtEHF7+yT7V2Lg0ysycXuxEydjvIy30eiU+VZu+PXMdo g++HaFaunS1JY5CQTeCk7hOl6dlIjUtpukUXaBArSnJmzXJHm0kKEy2khC4X/eq+ho38 HQ271YsYwBgRdz1sHnkvRofcSMmSDWu1xweQtnN2E8pbn/WX5645/5aGdeUC4OtJbkjt eRNb3+U2TdYqEhdZ6zGXoEpXonBH8RLW7mENwvMj/oslP0q4YwYlyTzccTmNRB3OI/3T uV4117vS4HhbUAAUePnA50L1d1htIR+Aufi6hi+fvZvSAkY3a3tVnjoJkfqobY/sszu4 +Pcg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1746360770; x=1746965570; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=nVRDZHpi4heZQVjBBZzTcucOspSCkASy80nTyKQz56s=; b=RTYDXDGtAf8+p39+RbN9rFZPQc8w6uS/pJ0adsh+m3X85MX1ZomRcAITUx0yhuAekE woNTgwkU7U8RCBxrxc6DFNvTPO07XO1kPJSHahfVMaWXnW8/H7JZR45fmz5wncEH1gHp 9pH2j/UVFXCpc3ql5WOCUoA9O0KaFyZACpasHxspyRM8jpGk62wKVnzprli0UpgDOAwO sRxEpb8bm6KWrt1LtgR9J/x0p2lqXHPw3HWRxpa0KSHfgGCgF4P0oFRCi2keZTL94YXa rAwr5s3q6dkcFC1BdtG2yUCmHTdOgu0OGM+9lrPrO3r8iWAuNbeEVM17HCkQ1kXRhIv7 TA1A== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUPaDB4o2Yg2ohFmRWhYdSawkq1o64YA06abq31uzK3Of4ajAAkuKvrjEezkMMbZyIuX12sDzJyvZs=@lists.php.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxbO0w84/XgHtXtberuBOeZzkQ9rBQoEOdEWlSN5EZflztfxXc6 ohzMXClBIsjlV7QZoyXZGmq2Wa0j2rPUWzCNagCsU/aNC+PX3s/kP0rYj5xF/bmrbp8CWsSqtKR W9vPU8ykmNyWGKsl75taSZ2Jzzro= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuGBXk3cu7G05vFQSK45oSHDclDqmahficO8sZqdYXhuKKp8jOhiWx2iVf4fh0 2fjnOiUJDXjxVRlZWgnbojH3e/1xr2JscexThYkSEHlUTCnfxf1hQot1hgxRmYFN7jcI+L2CP9I TlOxw88RwTEU1ws4ivPMm3dq/B5vCVLhCigQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG1bLFbNync8N+fYV2oYan0wVDt4DXERSsl6XkixcK3yBwzktiQiaZm/feS+YCSRRTZ8VoHimrjqgwQRL/kG/U= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:3107:b0:38d:dd52:1b5d with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3a09fd6bb5dmr2811509f8f.4.1746360769529; Sun, 04 May 2025 05:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk list-help: list-post: List-Id: internals.lists.php.net x-ms-reactions: disallow MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 4 May 2025 15:12:13 +0300 X-Gm-Features: ATxdqUHrz-DIG8sv5e7oAopjeY76lLRH8-oKE1WsYTWwhJkzbyiwgUU8Y8c2Ph0 Message-ID: Subject: [PHP-DEV] =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IMKgUmU6IFtQSFAtREVWXSBNb2R1bGVzLCBhZ2Fpbi4=?= To: Jochen Schultz Cc: Michael Morris , PHP internals Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000514b9806344e4d60" From: arvids.godjuks@gmail.com (Arvids Godjuks) --000000000000514b9806344e4d60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 4 May 2025 at 14:57, Jochen Schultz wrote: > > > Am 04.05.25, 13:07 schrieb Arvids Godjuks : >> >> >> >> On Sun, 4 May 2025 at 10:36, Michael Morris wrote: >> >>> It's been 9 months. Been researching, working on other projects, mullin= g >>> over >>> points raised the last time I brought this up. And at the moment I don'= t >>> think >>> PHP 8.5 is in its final weeks so this isn't a distraction for that. Th= e >>> previous discussion got seriously, seriously derailed and I got lost >>> even though >>> I started it. I'm not going to ask anyone to dig into the archives, >>> let's just >>> start afresh. >>> >>> *snip* >>> >> >> I've started reading, saw Wordpress... almost stopped right there, but >> decided *okay, this is too rash of me, read further*.... >> >> "My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined".gif >> It ended exactly how my first judging brain wave thought it would go - >> this whole thing is about fixing WordPress by changing the language. Pla= in >> and simple. >> >> No. >> -- >> >> >> *snip* >> >> I don't like wordpress either. It sure is the reason why PHP became a >> running gag in memes. >> >> But it exists. And if it goes away PHP might too. >> >> Yes, we hate it, it's a mess. But can we ignore it? >> >> I think it deserves a fair discussion. >> >> There might even be a "simple" solution to it. Maybe a version number >> that is auto-added to the namespace in composer? >> >> Maybe the wordpress community could fork composer and do it? >> Like what are we talking about? 10-20 lines of code? >> >> Best >> Jochen >> >> >> Yes, we should ignore it when working on language design and trying to improve it. For whatever reason, they made a deliberate commercial decision not to do anything about it, and this is not even touching on events of recent times :) Two - I already have to deal with JavaScript at times and all it's ecosystem. I do not want another JavaScript in my PHP, thank you. For me, any concept for modules, packages, etc, etc that ignores autoloading is dead on arrival. Ideally it should be transparent to any consuming code and be done on the defining side, erroring out when attempting to load/access something internal to a namespaca/package/module. I'm also not a fan of ability to mix multiple package versions in one code base. --=20 Arv=C4=ABds Godjuks +371 26 851 664 arvids.godjuks@gmail.com Telegram: @psihius https://t.me/psihius --000000000000514b9806344e4d60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, 4 May 2= 025 at 14:57, Jochen Schultz <Jo= chenSchultz@gmx.de> wrote:


Am 04.05.25, 13:07 schrieb Arvids Godjuks <arvi= ds.godjuks@gmail.com>= :


=
On Sun, 4 May 2025 at 10:36, Michael = Morris <tendoaki= @gmail.com> wrote:
It's been 9 months. Been researching, = working on other projects, mulling over
points raised the last time I b= rought this up. And at the moment I don't think
PHP 8.5 is in its f= inal weeks so this isn't a distraction for that.=C2=A0 The
previous= discussion got seriously, seriously derailed and I got lost even though I started it. I'm not going to ask anyone to dig into the archives, l= et's just
start afresh.

*snip*

I've started reading, saw Wordpr= ess... almost stopped right there, but decided *okay, this is too rash of m= e, read further*....

"My disappointment=C2=A0= is immeasurable=C2=A0and my day is ruined".gif
It ended exac= tly how my first judging brain wave thought it would go - this whole thing = is about fixing WordPress by changing the language. Plain and simple.
=

No.
--

*snip*

I don't like= wordpress either. It sure is the reason why PHP became a running gag in me= mes.

But it exists. And if it goes away PHP might = too.

Yes, we hate it, it's a mess. But can we = ignore it?

I think it deserves a fair discussion.<= /div>

There might even be a "simple" solution = to it. Maybe a version number that is auto-added to the namespace in compos= er?

Maybe the wordpress community could fork compo= ser and do it?
Like what are we talking about? 10-20 lines of cod= e?

Best
Jochen

=

Yes, we should ignore = it when working on language design and trying to improve it.
For = whatever reason, they made a deliberate commercial decision not to do anyth= ing about it, and this is not even touching on events of recent times :)
Two - I already have to deal with JavaScript at times and all it= 9;s ecosystem. I do not want another JavaScript in my PHP, thank you.
=

For me, any concept for modules, packages, etc, etc tha= t ignores autoloading is dead on arrival. Ideally it should be transparent = to any consuming code and be done on the defining side, erroring out when a= ttempting to load/access something internal to a namespaca/package/module.<= /div>
I'm also not a fan of ability to mix multiple package version= s in one code base.=C2=A0

--

Arv=C4=ABds Godjuks
+371 26 851 664
<= a href=3D"mailto:arvids.godjuks@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">arvids.godjuks= @gmail.com
Telegram: @psihius=C2=A0https://t.me/psihius
--000000000000514b9806344e4d60--