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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2025 17:09:24 +0200
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Tim_D=C3=BCsterhus?= <tim@bastelstu.be>, internals@lists.php.net
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: RFC: Nested Classes
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From: rob@bottled.codes ("Rob Landers")

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On Thu, Apr 24, 2025, at 16:31, Tim D=C3=BCsterhus wrote:
> Hi
>=20
> On 4/20/25 15:43, Rob Landers wrote:
> > As it seems that discussion has mostly died down, I'd like to put th=
is towards a vote starting on May 1, 2025.
>=20
> Unfortunately I did not have the time to follow the discussion after=20
> mid-March, so this might or might not have been discussed already. I=20
> just skimmed the RFC and a big issue from my PoV is the interaction of=20
> private nested classes and the shared namespace.
>=20
> All existing private symbols in PHP are =E2=80=9Cinvisible=E2=80=9D or=
 =E2=80=9Cnon-existent=E2=80=9D=20
> from the outside for all intents and purposes. As an example, it is=20
> possible to add a new private method to a class, without having an=20
> effect on child classes that already defined a method with the same na=
me.
>=20
> To my understanding this is different with private nested classes. A=20
> private nested class will =E2=80=9Cblock the name=E2=80=9D in the glob=
al class table,=20
> leading to naming conflicts with something the user shouldn't even kno=
w=20
> exists (because it's private).
>=20
> This is a reason for me to vote against the RFC and a reason why I=20
> preferred Ilija's =E2=80=9Cfile private=E2=80=9D classes that are much=
 simpler to reason=20
> about.
>=20
> Best regards
> Tim D=C3=BCsterhus
>=20

Thank you for your feedback! I think you would then have the problem tha=
t was pointed out by Levi the other day; where you would then have ambig=
uity. If you could have both private and public names in the same namesp=
ace, then you would end up not knowing which one was being referred to. =
Also, it is worth pointing out that private symbols are *not* "invisible=
" or "non-existent" from outside classes. They emit their own errors: ht=
tps://3v4l.org/PEGeA that indicate you tried to access something you sho=
uldn't be able to. This is different than when you try to access somethi=
ng that actually doesn't exist: https://3v4l.org/nWVPV

=E2=80=94 Rob
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<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title></head><body><div><br></div><d=
iv><br></div><div>On Thu, Apr 24, 2025, at 16:31, Tim D=C3=BCsterhus wro=
te:</div><blockquote type=3D"cite" id=3D"qt" style=3D""><div>Hi</div><di=
v><br></div><div>On 4/20/25 15:43, Rob Landers wrote:</div><div>&gt; As =
it seems that discussion has mostly died down, I'd like to put this towa=
rds a vote starting on May 1, 2025.</div><div><br></div><div>Unfortunate=
ly I did not have the time to follow the discussion after&nbsp;</div><di=
v>mid-March, so this might or might not have been discussed already. I&n=
bsp;</div><div>just skimmed the RFC and a big issue from my PoV is the i=
nteraction of&nbsp;</div><div>private nested classes and the shared name=
space.</div><div><br></div><div>All existing private symbols in PHP are =
=E2=80=9Cinvisible=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cnon-existent=E2=80=9D&nbsp;</div=
><div>from the outside for all intents and purposes. As an example, it i=
s&nbsp;</div><div>possible to add a new private method to a class, witho=
ut having an&nbsp;</div><div>effect on child classes that already define=
d a method with the same name.</div><div><br></div><div>To my understand=
ing this is different with private nested classes. A&nbsp;</div><div>pri=
vate nested class will =E2=80=9Cblock the name=E2=80=9D in the global cl=
ass table,&nbsp;</div><div>leading to naming conflicts with something th=
e user shouldn't even know&nbsp;</div><div>exists (because it's private)=
.</div><div><br></div><div>This is a reason for me to vote against the R=
FC and a reason why I&nbsp;</div><div>preferred Ilija's =E2=80=9Cfile pr=
ivate=E2=80=9D classes that are much simpler to reason&nbsp;</div><div>a=
bout.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards</div><div>Tim D=C3=BCsterhus=
</div><div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thank you for your=
 feedback! I think you would then have the problem that was pointed out =
by Levi the other day; where you would then have ambiguity. If you could=
 have both private and public names in the same namespace, then you woul=
d end up not knowing which one was being referred to. Also, it is worth =
pointing out that private symbols are <b>not</b> "invisible" or "non-exi=
stent" from outside classes. They emit their own errors:&nbsp;<a href=3D=
"https://3v4l.org/PEGeA">https://3v4l.org/PEGeA</a>&nbsp;that indicate y=
ou tried to access something you shouldn't be able to. This is different=
 than when you try to access something that actually doesn't exist:&nbsp=
;<a href=3D"https://3v4l.org/nWVPV">https://3v4l.org/nWVPV</a><br></div>=
<div><br></div><div id=3D"sig121229152">=E2=80=94 Rob</div></body></html=
>
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