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Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2025 18:30:40 +0100
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: short and inner classes
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From: rob@bottled.codes ("Rob Landers")

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On Mon, Mar 17, 2025, at 12:29, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] wrote:
> On 17/03/2025 10:37, Alexandru P=C4=83tr=C4=83nescu wrote:
>>> From what I understand of the proposal, the calling code won't know =
anything different based on it being "nested" or "namespaced", it will j=
ust see a class with a long name with some punctuation in.
>>=20
>> The problem for me is not autoloading, but that you can't have the tw=
o classes defined at the same time, while using some other punctuation i=
t would allow it.
>> I believe that there are other operators that we can use, to allow th=
is.
>=20
>=20
> Again, I challenge the premise: why would you want to have both define=
d at the same time?
>=20
> Do developers in Java, C#, Kotlin, or Swift complain about this limita=
tion?
>=20
> Is there any other language which makes a syntax distinction between "=
class Foo in namespace Bar" and "class Foo nested in class Bar"?
>=20

No, almost no other language I know of seems to make a distinction like =
PHP does. It appears that PHP is unique in this. Does that mean we can l=
earn more from these other languages, or less?

I=E2=80=99d be more than happy to put forward a short RFC or poll on the=
 syntax choices, as Alexander suggested. Even if this RFC fails, it woul=
d be good to get a consensus for the future.

>> (As a note, and this might have been discussed already, but I would p=
refer to use the term nested class instead of inner class, as in java th=
e inner classes means non-static classes, and I don't think we should go=
 that way.)
> 100% agree.
>=20
> If we did implement something more like "inner classes", a special syn=
tax might make more sense - there would be a very specific relationship =
between the inner and outer classes. I don't think "has special visibili=
ty of members, like a friend-class or file-private feature" needs to be =
highlighted in that way.
>=20

I am inclined to agree with you both on this. Originally I had planned f=
or an =E2=80=9Couter=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9C$outer=E2=80=9D that made it =
more like Java inner classes, but decided to leave it to a future RFC if=
 someone ever wanted to implement it. When I first started thinking abou=
t this RFC, static classes had fairly recently failed, and I didn=E2=80=99=
t want to define what a =E2=80=9Cstatic inner class=E2=80=9D was. This i=
s part of the reason why =E2=80=9Cstatic=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t allowed =
as an inner class modifier. This may be a potential future RFC if people=
 have need of it.

=E2=80=94 Rob
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<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type=3D"text/css">p.Mso=
Normal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}=0Ap.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}=0A=
p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div><br></div>=
<div><br></div><div>On Mon, Mar 17, 2025, at 12:29, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP=
] wrote:<br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" id=3D"qt" style=3D""><div cl=
ass=3D"qt-moz-cite-prefix">On 17/03/2025 10:37, Alexandru=0A      P=C4=83=
tr=C4=83nescu wrote:<br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:CAAw=
dEzDwyMjKutWu2FENE5pm17jGZ0kmrNRDQb-OAxwR-ZdHKQ@mail.gmail.com"><blockqu=
ote class=3D"qt-gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;ma=
rgin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-styl=
e:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;"><div>From=
=0A        what I understand of the proposal, the calling code won't know=
=0A        anything different based on it being "nested" or "namespaced",=
=0A        it will just see a class with a long name with some punctuati=
on=0A        in.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The problem f=
or me is not autoloading, but that you can't=0A        have the two clas=
ses defined at the same time, while using some=0A        other punctuati=
on it would allow it.<br></div><div>I believe that there are other opera=
tors that we can use, to=0A        allow this.<br></div></blockquote><p>=
<br></p><p>Again, I challenge the premise: why would you want to have bo=
th=0A      defined at the same time?<br></p><p>Do developers in Java, C#=
, Kotlin, or Swift complain about this=0A      limitation?<br></p><p>Is =
there any other language which makes a syntax distinction=0A      betwee=
n "class Foo in namespace Bar" and "class Foo nested in=0A      class Ba=
r"?<br></p></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No, almost no other language=
 I know of seems to make a distinction like PHP does. It appears that PH=
P is unique in this. Does that mean we can learn more from these other l=
anguages, or less?<br></div><div><br></div><div>I=E2=80=99d be more than=
 happy to put forward a short RFC or poll on the syntax choices, as Alex=
ander suggested. Even if this RFC fails, it would be good to get a conse=
nsus for the future.<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" i=
d=3D"qt" style=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite">(As a note, and this might=
 have been=0A        discussed already, but I would prefer to use the te=
rm nested=0A        class instead of inner class, as in java the inner c=
lasses means=0A        non-static classes, and I don't think we should g=
o that way.)<br></blockquote><p>100% agree.<br></p><p>If we did implemen=
t something more like "inner classes", a=0A      special syntax might ma=
ke more sense - there would be a very=0A      specific relationship betw=
een the inner and outer classes. I don't=0A      think "has special visi=
bility of members, like a friend-class or=0A      file-private feature" =
needs to be highlighted in that way.<br></p></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>I am inclined to agree with you both on this. Originally I had plan=
ned for an =E2=80=9Couter=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9C$outer=E2=80=9D that mad=
e it more like Java inner classes, but decided to leave it to a future R=
FC if someone ever wanted to implement it. When I first started thinking=
 about this RFC, static classes had fairly recently failed, and I didn=E2=
=80=99t want to define what a =E2=80=9Cstatic inner class=E2=80=9D was. =
This is part of the reason why =E2=80=9Cstatic=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t al=
lowed as an inner class modifier. This may be a potential future RFC if =
people have need of it.<br></div><div><br></div><div id=3D"sig121229152"=
>=E2=80=94 Rob<br></div></body></html>
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