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Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2025 16:11:06 +0200
Message-ID: <CAGwLL8WKJwpyMvoSuT_xoXXRCz4p+1c6KidxWhobwKDmuSD8EQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP True Async RFC
To: Daniil Gentili <daniil.gentili@gmail.com>
Cc: internals@lists.php.net
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000137772062fd550a7"
From: i.miroslavov@gmail.com (Iliya Miroslavov Iliev)

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One person observes 3 persons and he is curious what they are doing because
it looks strange.
The first person digs a hole.
The second person buries the hole.
The third person waters the buried hole.
He asks them: Why are you doing this?
They say: There is a fourth person that plants the seeds but he is sick
right now.


On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 3:41=E2=80=AFPM Daniil Gentili <daniil.gentili@gmail=
.com>
wrote:

>
> > The async block as I'm picturing it has nothing to do with function
> colouring, it's about the outermost function in an async stack being able
> to say "make sure the scheduler is started" and "block here until all chi=
ld
> fibers are either concluded, detached, or cancelled".
>
> There's no need for such a construct, as the awaitAll function does
> precisely what you describe, without the need to introduce the concept of=
 a
> child fiber and the excessive limitation of an async block that severely
> limits concurrency.
>
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with the concept of a fiber without a
> parent, or a fiber that throws an exception (or a cancellation exception)
> out of the event loop.
>
> A panic in a golang fiber surfaces out of the event loop (unless it is
> catched with a recover), just like an uncatched exception in a fiber
> surfaces out of the event loop: it makes no sense to severely limit
> concurrency with an async block just to handle the edge case of an uncaug=
ht
> exception (which can be handled anyway with an event loop exception
> handler).
>
> In general, I really don't like the concept of an async block the way it
> is presented here, because it implies that concurrency is something bad
> that must be limited and controlled, or else bad stuff will happen, when =
in
> reality, a fiber throwing an exception (without anyone await()ing on the
> fiber handle, thus throwing out of the event loop) is not the end of the
> world, and can be handled by other means, without limiting concurrency.
>
> Regards,
> Daniil Gentili.
>


--=20
Iliya Miroslavov Iliev
i.miroslavov@gmail.com

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<div dir=3D"ltr">One person observes=C2=A03 persons and he is curious what=
=C2=A0they are doing because it looks strange.<br>The first person digs a h=
ole.<br>The second person buries the=C2=A0hole.=C2=A0<br>The third person w=
aters the buried hole.<br>He asks them: Why are you doing this? <br>They sa=
y: There is a fourth=C2=A0person that plants the seeds but he is sick right=
 now.<br><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 3:41=E2=80=AFPM D=
aniil Gentili &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniil.gentili@gmail.com">daniil.gentil=
i@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">
=20
 =20
=20
 <div>
  <br><span dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">&gt; The=
 async block as I&#39;m picturing it has nothing to do with function colour=
ing, it&#39;s about the outermost function in an async stack being able to =
say &quot;make sure the scheduler is started&quot; and &quot;block here unt=
il all child fibers are either concluded, detached, or cancelled&quot;.</sp=
an>
  <br>
  <br><span dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">There=
9;s no need for such a construct, as the awaitAll function does precisely w=
hat you describe, without the need to introduce the concept of a child fibe=
r and the excessive limitation of an async block that severely limits concu=
rrency.</span>
  <br>
  <br><span dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">There is=
 absolutely nothing wrong with the concept of a fiber without a parent, or =
a fiber that throws an exception (or a cancellation exception) out of the e=
vent loop.</span>
  <br>
  <br><span dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">A panic =
in a golang fiber surfaces out of the event loop (unless it is catched with=
 a recover), just like an uncatched exception in a fiber surfaces out of th=
e event loop: it makes no sense to severely limit concurrency with an async=
 block just to handle the edge case of an uncaught exception (which can be =
handled anyway with an event loop exception handler).</span>
  <br>
  <br><span dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">In gener=
al, I really don&#39;t like the concept of an async block the way it is pre=
sented here, because it implies that concurrency is something bad that must=
 be limited and controlled, or else bad stuff will happen, when in reality,=
 a fiber throwing an exception (without anyone await()ing on the fiber hand=
le, thus throwing out of the event loop) is not the end of the world, and c=
an be handled by other means, without limiting concurrency.</span>
  <br>
  <br><span dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Regards,=
</span>
  <br><span dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Daniil G=
entili.</span>
  <br>
 </div>
</blockquote></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div><br></div><span class=
=3D"gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_s=
ignature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Iliya Miroslavov Iliev<div><a href=3D"mailto:i.m=
iroslavov@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"#6aa84f">i.miroslavov=
@gmail.com</font></a><br></div></div></div>

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