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Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2025 00:09:03 +0100
To: "Eugene Sidelnyk" <zsidelnik@gmail.com>,
 "Larry Garfield" <larry@garfieldtech.com>
Cc: "php internals" <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP True Async RFC
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From: rob@bottled.codes ("Rob Landers")

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On Tue, Mar 4, 2025, at 23:54, Eugene Sidelnyk wrote:
> Hi there,
>=20
> I would also like to highlight some interesting ideas that I find bein=
g useful to consider.
>=20
> Recently Bend programming language has been released, and it incorpora=
tes a completely different view on the conception of "code", in the defi=
nition of "what it is" and "how it should be interpreted".
>=20
> While we interpret it as a sequence of instructions, the proper way of=
 seeing it is the graph of instructions. On every step we reduce that gr=
aph, by running the code of the nodes current node depends on.=20
>=20
> Therefore, basically everything could paralleled w/o the need to have =
fancy management of threads and other low-level things.
>=20
> For example, having this code:
>=20
> $foo =3D foo();
> $bar =3D bar();
> $baz =3D $foo + $bar;
>=20
> If it was run in Bend, it would be interpreted so that foo() and bar()=
 functions are executed in parallel, and $baz =3D $foo + $bar is execute=
d afterwards, since this computation depends on the other two.
>=20
> The key, most excellently beautiful feature=20
> here is that all async management is under the hood, exposing nothing =
for the developers to be bothered with.
>=20
> That being said, I also want to mention that Bend has a primitive for =
concurrent loops. Actually, they used another solution, different from l=
oops, since loops are sequential by their essense (iterative one by one)=
. They introduced a concurrent alternative for loops with "bend" keyword=
, allowing data structures to be traversed in parallel.
>=20
> I think this is actually "the right way" of doing parallel processing =
in general and async programming in particular, and this is greatly to b=
e considered for having at least some principles applied in PHP.
>=20
> What I think it could be.
>=20
> async function baz(): int {
>   $foo =3D foo();
>   $bar =3D bar();
>=20
>   return $foo + $bar;
> }
>=20
> // value is returned just like from any other ordinary function
> $val =3D baz();=20
>=20
> Function above could run foo() in one fiber, and bar() in another, bot=
h of them being awaited at the return statement (at the first statement =
where the value is actually used / referenced, if we put it more general=
ly) so that actual values could be taken.
>=20
> In other words, async function is not promise-based as in other langua=
ges that suffer from red blue function problem, but rather it is functio=
n with coroutine flow of execution, so that foo() is executed as the fir=
st coroutine, and when it blocks, then bar() is executed until it also b=
locks. Then, at plus operator being evaluated, $foo is awaited, and $bar=
 is awaited, since they are necessary parts for + operation to complete.
>=20
>=20
> Best regards

Huh. Reminds me of SSA, which can identify independent computations like=
 that. It=E2=80=99s used by go, and many other compiled languages, but n=
ot in the same way this bend language does it. So, that=E2=80=99s intere=
sting.

I don=E2=80=99t know if php could implement SSA (maybe opcache could), b=
ut with how dynamic php is, I=E2=80=99m not sure it would be helpful.

An interesting application nonetheless, thanks for sharing!

=E2=80=94 Rob
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<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type=3D"text/css">p.Mso=
Normal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>On Tue, Mar 4, 2025, at 23:54, Eugene Sidelnyk wrote:<br>=
</div><blockquote type=3D"cite" id=3D"qt" style=3D""><div dir=3D"auto"><=
div dir=3D"auto">Hi there,<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div>I w=
ould also like to highlight some interesting ideas that I find being use=
ful to consider.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
Recently Bend programming language has been released, and it incorporate=
s a completely different view on the conception of "code", in the defini=
tion of "what it is" and "how it should be interpreted".<br></div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">While we interpret it as a seque=
nce of instructions, the proper way of seeing it is the graph of instruc=
tions. On every step we reduce that graph, by running the code of the no=
des current node depends on.&nbsp;<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">Therefore, basically everything could paralleled w/o t=
he need to have fancy management of threads and other low-level things.<=
br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">For example, havi=
ng this code:<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">$fo=
o =3D foo();<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">$bar =3D bar();<br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">$baz =3D $foo + $bar;<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">If it was run in Bend, it would be interpreted so that f=
oo() and bar() functions are executed in parallel, and $baz =3D $foo + $=
bar&nbsp;is executed afterwards, since this computation depends on the o=
ther two.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The key=
, most excellently beautiful feature&nbsp;<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">he=
re is that all async management is under the hood, exposing nothing for =
the developers to be bothered with.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto">That being said, I also want to mention that Bend has=
 a primitive for concurrent loops. Actually, they used another solution,=
 different from loops, since loops are sequential by their essense (iter=
ative one by one). They introduced a concurrent alternative for loops wi=
th "bend" keyword, allowing data structures to be traversed in parallel.=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I think this is =
actually "the right way" of doing parallel processing in general and asy=
nc programming in particular, and this is greatly to be considered for h=
aving at least some principles applied in PHP.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">What I think it could be.<br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">async function baz(): int {<br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">&nbsp; $foo =3D foo();<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
&nbsp; $bar =3D bar();<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto">&nbsp; return $foo + $bar;<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">}<br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">// value is returned just l=
ike from any other ordinary function<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">$val =3D=
 baz();&nbsp;<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Fun=
ction above could run foo() in one fiber, and bar() in another, both of =
them being awaited at the return statement (at the first statement where=
 the value is actually used / referenced, if we put it more generally) s=
o that actual values could be taken.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">In other words, async function is not promise-based =
as in other languages that suffer from red blue function problem, but ra=
ther it is function with coroutine flow of execution, so that foo() is e=
xecuted as the first coroutine, and when it blocks, then bar() is execut=
ed until it also blocks. Then, at plus operator being evaluated, $foo is=
 awaited, and $bar is awaited, since they are necessary parts for + oper=
ation to complete.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Best regards<br></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>Huh. Reminds me of SSA, which can identify independen=
t computations like that. It=E2=80=99s used by go, and many other compil=
ed languages, but not in the same way this bend language does it. So, th=
at=E2=80=99s interesting.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I don=E2=80=99t k=
now if php could implement SSA (maybe opcache could), but with how dynam=
ic php is, I=E2=80=99m not sure it would be helpful.<br></div><div><br><=
/div><div>An interesting application nonetheless, thanks for sharing!</d=
iv><div><br></div><div id=3D"sig121229152">=E2=80=94 Rob<br></div></body=
></html>
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