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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Policy on 3rd party code
In-Reply-To: <cdbc3c06-7369-49d1-a794-06568cea4be7@app.fastmail.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2024 15:33:09 -0400
Cc: php internals <internals@lists.php.net>,
 Andreas Heigl <andreas@heigl.org>
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Message-ID: <1E3250E0-17C7-4BCD-9A5F-7F2FED48686D@newclarity.net>
References: <92b537ac-62f4-435c-bf55-07223cfa1915@app.fastmail.com>
 <FB303710-75A5-447E-9A6C-DCF4FD956542@koalephant.com>
 <cdbc3c06-7369-49d1-a794-06568cea4be7@app.fastmail.com>
To: Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com>
From: mike@newclarity.net (Mike Schinkel)

> On Oct 2, 2024, at 3:36 PM, Andreas Heigl <andreas@heigl.org> wrote:
> IMO the PHP website is more or less a bunch of static pages. There is =
not really much interaction necessary. So having a framework might not =
necessarily be The Thing.

You may be confusing cause with effect. =20

IOW, given that all the current infrastructure really supports are =
static pages =E2=80=94 without a gargantuan effort to write and maintain =
a custom framework from scratch by unpaid volunteers =E2=80=94 the =
resultant website can only realistically be static pages.=20

Frankly, I envision the PHP website could be so much more if developing =
and maintaining it were not a gargantuan effort. Like WordPress' plugin =
and theme repositories, PHP could have a database of *all* third party =
offerings =E2=80=94 minus any objectively determined bad actors =E2=80=94 =
and showcase to the world all that the extended PHP community has to =
offer.

Or, imagine a store where PHP could sell T-Shirts, plushies and more, =
all to fund more core development?


> On Oct 5, 2024, at 10:25 PM, Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> A number of people are concerned that if we use any of the "Big =
Names", it would be interpreted as an endorsement of that project.  Eg, =
if we rebuilt the main website using Laravel, the Symfony folks would =
feel slighted.  If we used Symfony, the Laravel folks would get rather =
cross.  If we used Yii, the Slim folks would get upset.  If we used =
Drupal, we'd get constant "well why not Wordpress?" questions.  Etc.

OR, we could change the current model and consider and another approach.

Instead of maintaining a website based on 1980s[1] technology which can =
give newer developers who are interested in modern developer tools the =
opinion that PHP is not for them, PHP could move to a model for its =
website where it embraces "Big names" and does so on merit.

What do I mean by "merit?" =20

Consider the potential of adopting a new approach where PHP puts out a =
call for RFPs to any and all who are interested in submitting a proposal =
to build and maintain a website for PHP for three (3) years at a time.=20=


Interested stakeholders could join the PHP internal infrastructure =
mailing list and brainstormwhat is wanted tor the website and then =
prepare an RFP to put out for bid.  Nominally we would do so without =
paying for the service =E2=80=94 their benefit would be getting =
prominently featured as the developer and maintainer of the website =E2=80=
=94 but we could ask organizations in the community like JetBrains to =
pitch into a pot that could go to the winner of the bid, if we want to.

Then we take proposals from the projects themselves, any agency, and/or =
any other organization that want to propose and we have the members of =
the PHP internal infrastructure mailing list create a short list of the =
proposers based on criteria such as if we think they will be able to =
maintain doing so for a 3 years as well as what they actually propose, =
and finally have all voting members would vote on it.

Why would we do it his way?  Because this is how web development for =
organizations usually gets done today. I was involved in a agency =
project back in probably 2017 to build the website for the Agile =
Alliance (www.agilealliance.org). Certainly they had community members =
that could have built it but they chose instead to have it done by =
deciding what they wanted and they putting out an RFP. The result was =
they actually got the features they wanted in the near term instead of =
looking back 10 years or more thinking "When we can get around to it we =
can implement...whatever."

We would want to start this process well in advance to ensure enough =
people know about it and how time to submit a proposal =E2=80=94 e.g. 18 =
months? =E2=80=94 and that the RFP process for 3 years later would start =
a year after the site is launched.  I can imagine that a lot of =
PHP-focused YouTubers would be all over promoting this.

Then the unpaid volunteers here need not be as highly skilled nor as =
burdened to maintain all the technical infrastructure and can instead =
focus on maintaining the actual **content**.=20

The concern for bias also gets thrown out the door because it is based =
more on merit, and the decision is widely distributed across all the =
voting stakeholders in PHP in a relatively transparent process.  We =
could even say that any framework used for the last 3 years cannot be =
awarded the winning bid for the next 3 years to give more "big names" as =
shot at being the framework chosen.

There are tons of details that would need to be worked out, but as this =
is a wildly different approach from any the community has taken in the =
past =E2=80=94 although as I said this is the common approach =
organizations take today to build and maintain websites =E2=80=94 if it =
gets shot down by too many then no need to discuss the details any =
further.

-Mike
[1] I am being deliberately hyperbolic here for hopefully humorous =
effect. :-)