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Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2024 08:00:20 -0500
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Policy on 3rd party code
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From: larry@garfieldtech.com ("Larry Garfield")

On Sat, Oct 5, 2024, at 11:27 PM, Stephen Reay wrote:

>> A number of people are concerned that if we use any of the "Big Names=
", it would be interpreted as an endorsement of that project.  Eg, if we=
 rebuilt the main website using Laravel, the Symfony folks would feel sl=
ighted.  If we used Symfony, the Laravel folks would get rather cross.  =
If we used Yii, the Slim folks would get upset.  If we used Drupal, we'd=
 get constant "well why not Wordpress?" questions.  Etc.
>>=20
>> While I feel that concern is sometimes over-blown, I do believe it is=
 valid.  Notably, the "big name communities" tend to also be complete, i=
ntegrated solutions, and those also tend to be where there's more active=
 competition.  Eg, there's only one meaningful Yaml implementation the m=
arket, and two UUID libraries worth mentioning.  But there's literally d=
ozens of "frameworks" or "CMSes" to get mad at us.
>>=20
>> So banning "full" frameworks is my attempt at steering clear of the a=
ppearance of that kind of favoritism.  Showing favoritism for Composer o=
r Xdebug is, well, there's no competition to complain.  PHPUnit is techn=
ically not the only testing framework on the market, but it has north of=
 90% share (and is used internally by some of the few others).  But show=
ing favoritism between Drupal, Wordpress, TYPO3, Concrete5, and Joomla g=
ets a lot dicier.
>>=20
>> A full framework also makes maintenance potentially more challenging,=
 as we it's a much larger external moving target than a UUID library tha=
t we could easily fork in a worst case scenario.
>>=20
>> So... I don't really have a solid, clear definition of what constitut=
es a "full framework", because in the market, there isn't one.  I'm sure=
 someone could make a compelling argument that Slim isn't a full framewo=
rk, for instance, although I don't think I'd agree with it.
>>=20
>> It is inherently squishy, which is why these are intended as heuristi=
cs, not strict rules, and when it's unclear we can bring it to a vote vi=
a RFC, case by case.
>>=20
>> I'm open to better ways to define what "full" means here if anyone ha=
s suggestions.
>>=20
>> --Larry Garfield
>>=20
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> Right I understand the motivation, it's just the phrasing that I think=20
> needs to be clarified.
>
> From what you've said (which is kind of what I imagined you probably=20
> meant) I think it just needs to be clarified that the "full=20
> application" exclusion is about *web* applications, and doesn't=20
> applying to command line tooling/utilities.
>
> Cheers
>
> Stephen

Valid point.  I've added another definition, and used it throughout:

 Libraries refers to existing third party code packages or tools, either=
 C extensions or PHP code, maintained by someone other than the PHP Inte=
rnals team. It also includes command line utilities used primarily by a =
developer. It may also refer to non-profit PHP ecosystem organizations, =
such as the PHP Foundation or PHP-FIG.

Web Application refers to a =E2=80=9Cfull=E2=80=9D web framework that pr=
ovides end-to-end web application capabilities, or an installable comple=
te application. It does not refer to command line utilities used primari=
ly by developers building applications.=20

(Libraries are OK, Web Applications are mostly not, except in marketing =
where we can mention them as long as we don't play favorites.)

--Larry Garfield