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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 17:50:35 +0200
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] No more RFC implementations during beta phase
To: "Christoph M. Becker" <cmbecker69@gmx.de>, internals@lists.php.net
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From: bobwei9@hotmail.com (Bob Weinand)

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On 24.9.2024 17:14:20, Christoph M. Becker wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I want to suggest that we do not allow any RFC implementations to land
> during beta phase.  In my opinion, the remaining time to thoroughly
> check and address possibly overlooked issues is way too short otherwise.
>
> For instance, the implementation of "Deprecate proprietary CSV escaping
> mechanism"[1] landed just prior to 8.4.0beta1[2].  However, a serious
> issue with that implementation had only be fixed about two weeks ago[3],
> and the discussion what to do about that[4] is still unresolved.
>
> So in this case, the implementation would have been right in time, but
> still somewhat late.
>
> An even more problematic example would be the "Support object type in
> BCMath" RFC[5].  This has only been implemented shortly prior to
> 8.4.0beta5[6], so there has been almost no time to address overlooked
> issues prior to 8.4.0RC1.  A pretty serious bug in the implementation[7]
> has just been fixed[8] without any real chance to discuss the actual
> fix.  I'm not arguing that the fix should be reverted, but I'm rather
> pointing out that late RFC implementations could easily lead to those
> issues over and over again.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> [1]
> <https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_4#deprecate_proprietary_csv_escaping_mechanism>
> [2]
> <https://github.com/php/php-src/commit/c818d944cf998b3151e4b312d655c51223612c4e>
> [3]
> <https://github.com/php/php-src/commit/f756b96e06db29a978bbf3ad3a5c52f6d0d97c64>
> [4]<https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/15569#issuecomment-2354447087>ff
> [5]<https://wiki.php.net/rfc/support_object_type_in_bcmath>
> [6]
> <https://github.com/php/php-src/commit/fad899e5662d0a929d8462dd8239b0489dd9b53f>
> [7]<https://github.com/php/php-src/issues/15968>
> [8]<https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/16021>
>
> Christoph

Hey Christoph,

I certainly can see where you are coming from. But that's mostly what is 
defining the beta phase - an evolving version of PHP, but where it's 
clear which features will make it (i.e. all RFCs have to be accepted by 
then) - a period where people can start introducing support for the next 
PHP version without being surprised at yet unknown breaks.

The period of stabilization of the new features is the RC phase. If you 
feel we don't have enough time to stabilize, I'd rather enlarge the RC 
phase (possibly at the expense of 1-2 betas).

I consider it important to retain the policy of submitting RFC 
implementations during beta, so that implementations are not rushed and 
thoroughly reviewed before being merged. The cutoff for RFCs being 
accepted is the first beta, but a lot of RFC implementations don't quite 
yet have the desired quality for merging. It's important to allow 
implementations to mature before merging.

Thanks,

Bob

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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 24.9.2024 17:14:20, Christoph M.
      Becker wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:16d24095-564a-41f1-bf7f-cee9466f76ea@gmx.de">
      <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">Hi all,

I want to suggest that we do not allow any RFC implementations to land
during beta phase.  In my opinion, the remaining time to thoroughly
check and address possibly overlooked issues is way too short otherwise.

For instance, the implementation of &quot;Deprecate proprietary CSV escaping
mechanism&quot;[1] landed just prior to 8.4.0beta1[2].  However, a serious
issue with that implementation had only be fixed about two weeks ago[3],
and the discussion what to do about that[4] is still unresolved.

So in this case, the implementation would have been right in time, but
still somewhat late.

An even more problematic example would be the &quot;Support object type in
BCMath&quot; RFC[5].  This has only been implemented shortly prior to
8.4.0beta5[6], so there has been almost no time to address overlooked
issues prior to 8.4.0RC1.  A pretty serious bug in the implementation[7]
has just been fixed[8] without any real chance to discuss the actual
fix.  I'm not arguing that the fix should be reverted, but I'm rather
pointing out that late RFC implementations could easily lead to those
issues over and over again.

Thoughts?

[1]
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_4#deprecate_proprietary_csv_escaping_mechanism">&lt;https://wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_8_4#deprecate_proprietary_csv_escaping_mechanism&gt;</a>
[2]
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://github.com/php/php-src/commit/c818d944cf998b3151e4b312d655c51223612c4e">&lt;https://github.com/php/php-src/commit/c818d944cf998b3151e4b312d655c51223612c4e&gt;</a>
[3]
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://github.com/php/php-src/commit/f756b96e06db29a978bbf3ad3a5c52f6d0d97c64">&lt;https://github.com/php/php-src/commit/f756b96e06db29a978bbf3ad3a5c52f6d0d97c64&gt;</a>
[4] <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/15569#issuecomment-2354447087">&lt;https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/15569#issuecomment-2354447087&gt;</a>ff
[5] <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://wiki.php.net/rfc/support_object_type_in_bcmath">&lt;https://wiki.php.net/rfc/support_object_type_in_bcmath&gt;</a>
[6]
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://github.com/php/php-src/commit/fad899e5662d0a929d8462dd8239b0489dd9b53f">&lt;https://github.com/php/php-src/commit/fad899e5662d0a929d8462dd8239b0489dd9b53f&gt;</a>
[7] <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://github.com/php/php-src/issues/15968">&lt;https://github.com/php/php-src/issues/15968&gt;</a>
[8] <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/16021">&lt;https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/16021&gt;</a>

Christoph</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p>Hey Christoph,</p>
    <p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap">I certainly can see where you are coming from. But that's mostly what is defining the beta phase - an evolving version of PHP, but where it's clear which features will make it (i.e. all RFCs have to be accepted by then) - a period where people can start introducing support for the next PHP version without being surprised at yet unknown breaks.</span></p>
    <p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap">The period of stabilization of the new features is the RC phase. If you feel we don't have enough time to stabilize, I'd rather enlarge the RC phase (possibly at the expense of 1-2 betas).</span></p>
    <p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap">I consider it important to retain the policy of submitting RFC implementations during beta, so that implementations are not rushed and thoroughly reviewed before being merged. The cutoff for RFCs being accepted is the first beta, but a lot of RFC implementations don't quite yet have the desired quality for merging. It's important to allow implementations to mature before merging.
</span></p>
    <p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap">
</span></p>
    <p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap">Thanks,</span></p>
    <p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap">Bob
</span></p>
    <p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap">
</span></p>
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