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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 09:18:14 +0100
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Zephir, and other tangents
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From: imsop.php@rwec.co.uk ("Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]")



On 20 September 2024 06:20:46 BST, Mike Schinkel <mike@newclarity=2Enet> w=
rote:
>> Embedding it into other languages is a different usage again=2E It's ce=
rtainly something that is being explored, e=2Eg=2E by Extism, and that seem=
s like a good project for anyone interested here to participate in, e=2Eg=
=2E to help design the "glue" between PHP and WASM / Extism=2E
>
>Moot point as it cannot be run on a managed hosted server=2E

Why not? Only because the people managing that server haven't been persuad=
ed to include it as an option=2E And that is mostly because it's currently =
experimental, and there isn't wide demand for it=2E


>> Just to reiterate, if by "built-in to PHP core", you mean "every copy o=
f PHP includes a functional WASM runtime", that's not going to happen=2E It=
 would mean bundling (or requiring every user to install) a huge third-part=
y dependency, with all of its dependencies and platform requirements, even =
if they weren't interested in using it=2E
>
>So why do you claim that bundling a third-party dependency is a "never go=
ing to happen" scenario? =20
>
>By that logic PHP would have none of these functionalities:
>
>=E2=80=A2 cURL
>=E2=80=A2 GD
>=E2=80=A2 PDO
>=E2=80=A2 OpenSSL
>=E2=80=A2 MBString
>=E2=80=A2 Zlib
>=E2=80=A2 Zip
>=E2=80=A2 XSL
>=E2=80=A2 EXIF
>=E2=80=A2 BCMath

None of those are "built into PHP core" in the sense of "every copy of PHP=
 includes them"=2E Nor do any of them bundle their third-party dependencies=
=2EThey are all optional extensions, which the user has to provide the depe=
ndencies for if they want to install and enable them=2E

They are what is sometimes referred to as "bundled extensions", which just=
 means they have source code in the php-src repository, and get new release=
s at the same time as PHP=2E Being in that list doesn't mean managed hosts =
have to provide them (who would force them?) and not being in that list doe=
sn't mean managed hosts can't provide them (it's as easy to install "php-mo=
ngodb" on Ubuntu as "php-mysqli", even though one is "bundled" and the othe=
r hosted on PECL)=2E

Being "bundled" may be interpreted as something of a "stamp of approval", =
indicating that an extension is mainstream and stable=2E That's something t=
hat has to be earned - many extensions started out in their own projects, w=
ith releases listed on PECL or elsewhere, and were proposed for adoption in=
to the php-src repo once they became stable=2E

Which is why I say your energies for now are best spent on a project like =
extism, or wasmer-php - build that stable extension, and then we can discus=
s whether it would be beneficial to adopt it into the php-src repo=2E



>Seems you do not actually understand WASM runtimes=2E =20
>
>While WebAssembly is available "out of the box" in JavaScript-based runti=
mes like Node=2Ejs, Deno, and Electron, it is not limited to them=2E Standa=
lone WebAssembly runtimes like Wasmtime and WAVM allow WebAssembly to be ru=
n as a general-purpose compute target, outside the scope of a JavaScript en=
gine=2E=20

I absolutely understand that; I already said that it will be interesting t=
o see how projects like extism develop, making use of those runtimes to run=
 alongside other languages=2E But as far as PHP, or Python, or Java, is con=
cerned, those runtimes are an external process or library that is being int=
erfaced=2E Integrating with them is no different, in principle, from integr=
ating the driver for some new kind of database=2E

Which is great; it means you don't need any approval from this list, or to=
 write up an RFC, you can get involved in building that integration right n=
ow, wherever people are working on an extension to enable it=2E

Regards,
Rowan Tommins
[IMSoP]