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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2024 23:15:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: Hammed Ajao <hamiegold@gmail.com>
Cc: Rob Landers <rob@bottled.codes>,
	Adam Zielinski <adam.zielinski@automattic.com>,
	Mike Schinkel <mike@newclarity.net>,
	PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Zephir, and other tangents
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From: dennis.snell@automattic.com (Dennis Snell)


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Hi Hammed, thank you for taking the time to read through this and share you=
r thoughts.


> On Sep 19, 2024, at 1:41 PM, Hammed Ajao <hamiegold@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 8:30=E2=80=AFPM Dennis Snell <dennis.snell@automa=
ttic.com
>> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Sep 17, 2024, at 2:03 PM, Rob Landers <rob@bottled.codes> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2024, at 14:57, Adam Zielinski wrote:
>>>=20
>>>>> To summarize, I think PHP would benefit from:
>>>>=20
>>>>>
>>>>=20
>>>>> 1. Adding WASM for simple low-level extensibility that could run on
>>>>=20
>>>>> shared hosts for things that are just not possible in PHP as describe=
d a
>>>>=20
>>>>> few paragraphs prior, and where we could enhance functionality over t=
ime,
>>>>=20
>>>>>
>>>>=20
>>>>> 2. Constantly improving PHP the language, which is what you are solely
>>>>=20
>>>>> advocating for over extensibility,
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I=E2=80=99m Adam, I'm building WordPress Playground [1] =E2=80=93 it's=
 WordPress running in the browser via a WebAssembly PHP build [2]. I'm exci=
ted to see this discussion and wanted to offer my perspective.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> WebAssembly support in PHP core would be a huge security and productiv=
ity improvement for the PHP and WordPress communities.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> To summarize, I think PHP would benefit from:
>>>>=20
>>>>>
>>>>=20
>>>>> 1. Adding WASM for simple low-level extensibility that could run on
>>>>=20
>>>>> shared hosts for things that are just not possible in PHP as describe=
d a
>>>>=20
>>>>> few paragraphs prior, and where we could enhance functionality over t=
ime,
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Exactly this! With WASM, WordPress would get access to fast, safe, and=
 battle-tested libraries.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Today, we're recreating a lot of existing libraries just to be able to=
 use them in PHP, e.g. parsers for HTML [3], XML [4], Zip [5], MySQL [6], o=
r an HTTP client [7]. There are just no viable alternatives. Viable, as in =
working on all webhosts, having stellar compliance with each format's speci=
fication, supporting stream parsing, and having low footprint. For example,=
 the curl PHP extensions is brilliant, but it's unavailable on many webhost=
s.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> With WebAssembly support, we could stop rewriting and start leaning on=
 the popular C, Rust, etc. libraries instead. Who knows, maybe we could eve=
n polyfill the missing PHP extensions?
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> 2. Constantly improving PHP the language, which is what you are solely
>>>>=20
>>>>> advocating for over extensibility,
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Just to add to that =E2=80=93 I think WASM support is important for PH=
P to stay relevant. There's an exponential advantage to building a library =
once and reusing it across the language boundaries. A lot of companies is i=
nvested in PHP and that won't change in a day. However, lacking access to t=
he WASM ecosystem, I can easily imagine the ecosystem slowly gravitating to=
wards JavaScript, Python, Go, Rust, and other WASM-enabled languages.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Security-wise, WebAssembly is Sandboxed and would enable safe processi=
ng of untrusted files. Vulnerabilities like Zip slip [8] wouldn't affect a =
sandboxed filesystem. Perhaps we could even create a secure enclave for run=
ning composer packages and WordPress plugins without having to fully trust =
them.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Another use-case is code reuse between JavaScript and PHP. I'm sceptic=
al this could work with reasonable speed and resource consumption, but let'=
s assume for a moment there is a ultra low overhead JavaScript runtime in W=
ebAssembly. WordPress could have a consistent templating language. PHP back=
end would render the website markup using the same templates and libraries =
as the JavaScript frontend. Half the code would achieve the same task.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Also, here's a few interesting "WASM in PHP" projects I found =
=E2=80=93 maybe they would be helpful:
>>>>=20
>>>> - WebAssembly runtime built in PHP (!)=C2=A0https://github.com/jasperw=
eyne/unwasm
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> - WebAssembly runtime as a PHP language extension:=C2=A0https://github=
.com/veewee/ext-wasm
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> - WebAssembly runtime as a PHP language extension:=C2=A0https://github=
.com/extism/php-sdk
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> [1]=C2=A0https://github.com/WordPress/wordpress-playground/
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> [2]=C2=A0https://github.com/WordPress/wordpress-playground/tree/trunk/=
packages/php-wasm/compile
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> [3]=C2=A0https://developer.wordpress.org/reference/classes/wp_html_pro=
cessor/
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> [4]=C2=A0https://github.com/WordPress/wordpress-develop/pull/6713
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> [5]=C2=A0https://github.com/WordPress/blueprints-library/blob/87afea1f=
9a244062a14aeff3949aae054bf74b70/src/WordPress/Zip/ZipStreamReader.php
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> [6]=C2=A0https://github.com/WordPress/sqlite-database-integration/pull=
/157
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> [7]=C2=A0https://github.com/WordPress/blueprints-library/blob/trunk/sr=
c/WordPress/AsyncHttp/Client.php
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> [8]=C2=A0https://security.snyk.io/research/zip-slip-vulnerability
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -Adam
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Hey Adam,
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I actually went down something like this road for a bit when working at=
 Automattic. My repo even probably still exists in the graveyard repository=
=E2=80=A6 but I had plugins running in C# and Java over a couple of weeks. =
This was long before wasm was a thing, and while cool, nobody really could =
think of a use for it.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> It seems like you have a use for it though, and I=E2=80=99m reasonably =
certain you could get it working over ffi in a few weeks; yet you mention h=
osts not even having the curl extension installed, so I doubt that even if =
wasm came to be, it would be available on those hosts.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> There are two major areas I have found that would benefit from having a =
WASM runtime in PHP:
>>=20
>>=20
>> Obviously, being able to run the same algorithms on the frontend and bac=
kend is a huge win for consistency in applications.=C2=A0
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> I'm not convinced. That's what they said about nodejs(same algos and same=
 language on FE and BE). Except it's not really that consistent because the=
re are several discrepancies between the browser and node runtime. I'll bel=
ieve it when I see it.
>=20
>=20
>=20

There=E2=80=99s a note about this point that I think is worth calling out, =
and that is something you probably already know, but JavaScript runtimes pr=
ovide a standard library while a WASM runtime is mostly just a virtual mach=
ine. There=E2=80=99s also nothing provided that I=E2=80=99m aware of in WAS=
M that offers filesystem access or network access, which are major areas wh=
ere in-browser JavaScript and NodeJS backends differ (because the browser a=
nd server environments are fundamentally limited by different needs).


As things stand, projects are compiled into WebAssembly and literally run i=
dentically in the different runtimes because it=E2=80=99s the bytecode that=
=E2=80=99s specified, not specific functions or libraries. Whereas with Jav=
aScript we=E2=80=99re shipping source code and interacting with very differ=
ent systems, WASM bundles are a few steps removed from that, and have no DO=
M or system access to interact with.


I=E2=80=99m fairly confident we can say that it=E2=80=99s non-controversial=
 that folks routinely run identical algorithms across different WASM runtim=
es in different environments. As you mentioned elsewhere, it=E2=80=99s very=
 much akin to how Java and Closure and Scala all run on the JVM just fine t=
ogether even being different languages, except in this case the runtime is =
an isolated sandbox by default with no external system access. WASM is a lo=
vely little VM, successful in ways many before it haven=E2=80=99t been.


> =C2=A0
>> Particularly with text-related algorithms it=E2=80=99s really easy for i=
nconsistencies to develop due to the features available in each languages s=
tandard library, as well as due to differences in how each language handles=
 and processes string.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> I can see the appeal of that though.
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The other major area is similar, and we=E2=80=99ve seen this with the HT=
ML and XML parsing work recently undertaken in WordPress.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Yeah you could talk about html parsing before 8.4 but with 8.4 we get lex=
bor (thanks to niels) and that's as good as it gets. Php already has beauti=
ful support for XML though so I'm not sure why you would implement a parser=
 yourself.
>=20

It=E2=80=99s wonderful that PHP is finally getting a spec-compliant HTML DO=
M parser for the first time in its history, but \Dom\HTMLDocument is not th=
e right interface for every server need, and remains ill-suited for the kin=
d of work typical in a WordPress site, which needs to run on low memory bud=
gets, perform as fast as possible, and exceed the safety of what a generic =
DOM parser produces (there are cases that \Dom\HTMLDocument will still intr=
oduce vulnerabilities into an HTML document because it=E2=80=99s able to cr=
eate DOM trees that cannot be represented by HTML upon serialization, and a=
s it implements the HTML spec, it cannot prevent creating those trees). The=
re are still a number of steps every developer needs to take to properly se=
tup the parser and get the right results back, and the parser has to load t=
he entire DOM tree into memory before any reads or manipulations can be per=
formed on it.


WordPress=E2=80=99 HTML API is a near-zero memory overhead streaming HTML p=
arser designed around safe-by-default reading and writing of HTML which req=
uires no configuration or manual steps to get =E2=80=9Cthe right thing.=
=E2=80=9D It=E2=80=99s also significantly slower in user-space PHP than it =
needs to be. I hope one day that PHP has its own copy of this streaming par=
ser design, which is performant and available in every copy of PHP (which i=
s another issue with code only available in extensions), but even if that n=
ever happens, running C or Rust code compiled to WebAssembly would provide =
almost the same value as having that design implemented in the language.


>=20
>=20
>=20
>> There are plenty of cases where efficient and spec-compliant operations =
are valuable, but these kinds of things tend to cost significantly more in =
user-space PHP.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>> Being able to jump into WASM, even with the overhead of exchanging that =
data and running another VM, would very likely result in a noticeable net i=
mprovement in runtime performance.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> What exactly do you mean by jump into wasm? Like hand write it? Or you me=
an jump into a language that can be compiled to wasm? How about debugging a=
t runtime? And if you mean better performance than PHP, while that is likel=
y, it isn't guaranteed. PHP is pretty fast and will be faster for some rout=
ines that are optimized by the engine. Wasm will never be as fast as extens=
ions though because with extensions, all you're doing is extending the engi=
ne. Same as any internal extension. With wasm you're interoperating with an=
 entirely separate VM.
>=20

By jumping into WASM I=E2=80=99m talking about the second thing you mention=
: calling functions written in languages compiled to WebAssembly. Even with=
 the overhead of marshaling data, the things that WebAssembly is good at ar=
e the things that PHP is slow at: specifically things like raw numeric comp=
utation and string manipulation and parsing. I write a lot of parsing code =
and frequently am surprised at the overhead cost of string processing and a=
rray operations in PHP. There are a number of straightforward operations av=
ailable in C that just can=E2=80=99t be done in PHP. I don=E2=80=99t see th=
is as a failing of PHP, just an aspect of how it is.


For runtime debugging I don=E2=80=99t have any particular thoughts. I=
=E2=80=99m not aware of anyone who has ever tried to runtime debug CURL cal=
ls or things like `mb_convert_encoding()`. Functions invoked in the WASM ru=
ntime would more or less be library functions, like `ffmpeg`. Debugging wou=
ld likely most frequently be done as a library and dumped into the PHP appl=
ication with no expectation for debugging.


Effectively these are user-space PHP extensions, and are very convenient be=
cause they can be updated without recompiling PHP or begging web hosts to u=
pdate their PHP version, or to do that every other Tuesday, or whenever ano=
ther security exploit is fixed in some image processor. On that note, the a=
bility to sandbox image processing code (and any other user-provided conten=
t) is a huge perk. Many of the exploits of past PHP extensions could be con=
tained inside the VM, which has limited ability to reach out into the syste=
m. Fixing vulnerabilities and bugs becomes something any auto-updater can a=
ccomplish, requiring no effort or interaction on the part of the host.


>=20
>=20
>> Additionally, it=E2=80=99s a perk being able to write such algorithms in=
 languages that aid that development through more powerful type systems.
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> We can agree on that. But I use C++ for my extensions so there's also tha=
t.
>=20
>=20
>> There=E2=80=99s additional value in a number of other separate tasks. Co=
nverting images or generating thumbnails is a good example where raw perfor=
mance is less of a concern than being able to ensure that the image library=
 is available and not exposing the host system to risk.=C2=A0
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Imo this is where FFI should shine but I'll admit that the current implem=
entation is lacking in both security and functionality.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> I imagine plenty of =E2=80=9CPHP lite-extensions=E2=80=9D appearing in t=
his space because it would give people the opportunity to experiment with f=
eatures that are impractical in user-space PHP before fully committing the =
language itself to that interface or library. It would extend the reach of =
PHP=E2=80=99s usability because it would make possible for folks, who happe=
n to be running on cheap shared hosts, to run more complicated processing t=
asks than are practical today. While big software shops and SaaS vendors do=
 and can run their own custom PHP extensions, there=E2=80=99s not great way=
 to share those generally to people without the same full control over thei=
r stack.
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Shared hosting for php gets you the worst possible version of php.=20
>=20

Couldn=E2=80=99t have said it better myself!


> Can't recompile to enable any bundled extension, can't install any new ex=
tensions, so how exactly would you approach this? Wasm bundled with the eng=
ine by default? Or some kind of opt in mechanism that shared hosters won't =
even be able to use?
>=20

As with many of the things I=E2=80=99ve been writing on this list lately, t=
o me, an embedded WASM runtime makes most sense as a central language featu=
re and available everywhere PHP is deployed. There are a few core basic sub=
systems that either are foundational to the environment PHP operates in (fo=
r example, web-related technologies like HTTP and HTML and URLs) or which b=
ring so much value to the language that it opens up brand new paradigms or =
potentially removes major maintenance burdens.


If we could ship `imagemagick` as a WASM extension there would be no need f=
or the `imagemagick` extension. The security environment out of the box is =
so much better; it=E2=80=99s not worth the lost potential for performance t=
hat a native extension offers. Someone may not agree with this, and that=
=E2=80=99s fine because they can always install a native extension or utili=
ze the FFI on infrastructure they control.


I think at times WordPress sees a very different picture of the world than =
many great PHP projects see. Our reality is that we=E2=80=99re writing code=
 that runs on hardware we don=E2=80=99t control or even know about. We cann=
ot in any way install or force certain extensions to be present. The worst =
possible version of PHP is literally the constraint at which we are allowed=
 to code. Anything beyond that and we can=E2=80=99t ship it because a large=
 fraction of the internet will start crashing. It=E2=80=99s frustrating, bu=
t also an honor to be able to ensure that people who can=E2=80=99t afford h=
igh end servers can still build their own place on the world wide web.


Over the past several years, though, WordPress has also been a positive inf=
luence on persuading hosts to update their PHP versions, because PHP has go=
tten better enough that the argument is easy: upgrade to PHP 7 and your dat=
a center costs will drop X%. It=E2=80=99s not too hard to imagine winning s=
imilarly on the security argument.


WASM code on memory-constrained, oversubscribed, CPU-poor hosts is still co=
nsiderably better for certain kinds of computation than user-space PHP code=
 on memory-constrained, oversubscribed, CPU-poor hosts.


>=20
>=20
> >>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> However, plugins basically work via hooks/filters. So as long as you re=
gister the right listeners and handle serialization properly, you can simpl=
y run a separate process for the plugin, or call a socket for =E2=80=9Cremo=
te=E2=80=9D plugins.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I don=E2=80=99t see anything stopping anyone from implementing that tod=
ay.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> =E2=80=94 Rob
>>>=20
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m excited to see this conversation. I=E2=80=99ve wanted to pro=
pose it a number of times myself.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Warmly,
>> Dennis Snell=C2=A0
>>=20
>=20
> I actually love wasm, I'm currently in the process of compiling my mini p=
hp runtime to wasm (basically a browser only version of 3v4l). I'm not agai=
nst this for any personal reasons, I'm simply not sure it's the right appro=
ach.
>=20
>=20
>=20

That sounds awesome. The WordPress Playground ships a copy of PHP compiled =
to WASM, and it=E2=80=99s been an incredible journey realizing just what=
=E2=80=99s capable with this technology. It=E2=80=99s really boosted the de=
veloper experience working on WordPress itself and also that of those build=
ing their own projects using WordPress. Some are already bringing in librar=
ies like ffmpeg to convert images and media on the frontend, though it=
=E2=80=99s sad that can=E2=80=99t also be done on the server yet.


>=20
> Cheers,
> Hammed
>=20
>=20
>=20

Hope you have a nice weekend. Cheers.


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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w=
3.org/TR/REC-html40/loose.dtd">
<html>
<head>
<meta charset=3D"utf-8">
<style>body{font-family:-apple-system,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;}blockquot=
e{margin:0;padding:0 0 0 12px;border-left:1px solid #aaa;color:#aaa;}hr.uni=
box-forward{border:0;color:#888;background-color:#888;height:1px;}</style>
</head>
<body>
<div>Hi Hammed, thank you for taking the time to read through this and shar=
e your thoughts.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Sep 19, 2024, at 1:41 PM, Hammed Ajao &lt;hamiegold@gmail.com&gt; w=
rote:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-s=
tandard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none=
;">
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 8:30=E2=80=AF=
PM Dennis Snell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dennis.snell@automattic.com" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">dennis.snell@automattic.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 20=
4, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div>
<u></u><div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Sep 17, 2024, at 2:03 PM, Rob Landers &lt;rob@bottled.codes&gt; wro=
te:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;">
<br><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;">On Tue, Sep 17, 2024, at 14:57, Adam=
 Zielinski wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" id=3D"m_6458481777469535973m_4230091655337564398m=
_-3040290962447134337qt" style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-varia=
nt-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;"><div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>&gt; To summarize, I think PHP would benefit from:<br>
</div>
<div>&gt;<br>
</div>
<div>&gt; 1. Adding WASM for simple low-level extensibility that could run =
on<br>
</div>
<div>&gt; shared hosts for things that are just not possible in PHP as desc=
ribed a<br>
</div>
<div>&gt; few paragraphs prior, and where we could enhance functionality ov=
er time,<br>
</div>
<div>&gt;<br>
</div>
<div>&gt; 2. Constantly improving PHP the language, which is what you are s=
olely<br>
</div>
<div>&gt; advocating for over extensibility,<br>
</div>
<div>Hi Mike,<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I=E2=80=99m Adam, I'm building WordPress Playground [1] =E2=80=93 it's=
 WordPress running in the browser via a WebAssembly PHP build [2]. I'm exci=
ted to see this discussion and wanted to offer my perspective.<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>WebAssembly support in PHP core would be a huge security and productiv=
ity improvement for the PHP and WordPress communities.<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>&gt; To summarize, I think PHP would benefit from:<br>
</div>
<div>&gt;<br>
</div>
<div>&gt; 1. Adding WASM for simple low-level extensibility that could run =
on<br>
</div>
<div>&gt; shared hosts for things that are just not possible in PHP as desc=
ribed a<br>
</div>
<div>&gt; few paragraphs prior, and where we could enhance functionality ov=
er time,<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Exactly this! With WASM, WordPress would get access to fast, safe, and=
 battle-tested libraries.<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Today, we're recreating a lot of existing libraries just to be able to=
 use them in PHP, e.g. parsers for HTML [3], XML [4], Zip [5], MySQL [6], o=
r an HTTP client [7]. There are just no viable alternatives. Viable, as in =
working on all webhosts, having stellar compliance with each format's speci=
fication, supporting stream parsing, and having low footprint. For example,=
 the curl PHP extensions is brilliant, but it's unavailable on many webhost=
s.<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>With WebAssembly support, we could stop rewriting and start leaning on=
 the popular C, Rust, etc. libraries instead. Who knows, maybe we could eve=
n polyfill the missing PHP extensions?<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>&gt; 2. Constantly improving PHP the language, which is what you are s=
olely<br>
</div>
<div>&gt; advocating for over extensibility,<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Just to add to that =E2=80=93 I think WASM support is important for PH=
P to stay relevant. There's an exponential advantage to building a library =
once and reusing it across the language boundaries. A lot of companies is i=
nvested in PHP and that won't change in a day. However, lacking access to t=
he WASM ecosystem, I can easily imagine the ecosystem slowly gravitating to=
wards JavaScript, Python, Go, Rust, and other WASM-enabled languages.<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Security-wise, WebAssembly is Sandboxed and would enable safe processi=
ng of untrusted files. Vulnerabilities like Zip slip [8] wouldn't affect a =
sandboxed filesystem. Perhaps we could even create a secure enclave for run=
ning composer packages and WordPress plugins without having to fully trust =
them.<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Another use-case is code reuse between JavaScript and PHP. I'm sceptic=
al this could work with reasonable speed and resource consumption, but let'=
s assume for a moment there is a ultra low overhead JavaScript runtime in W=
ebAssembly. WordPress could have a consistent templating language. PHP back=
end would render the website markup using the same templates and libraries =
as the JavaScript frontend. Half the code would achieve the same task.<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Also, here's a few interesting "WASM in PHP" projects I found =
=E2=80=93 maybe they would be helpful:<br>
</div>
<div>- WebAssembly runtime built in PHP (!)<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"ht=
tps://github.com/jasperweyne/unwasm" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://github.com/jasperweyne/unwasm</a><br>
</div>
<div>- WebAssembly runtime as a PHP language extension:<span>=C2=A0</span><=
a href=3D"https://github.com/veewee/ext-wasm" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"=
_blank">https://github.com/veewee/ext-wasm</a><br>
</div>
<div>- WebAssembly runtime as a PHP language extension:<span>=C2=A0</span><=
a href=3D"https://github.com/extism/php-sdk" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_=
blank">https://github.com/extism/php-sdk</a><br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>[1]<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://github.com/WordPress/wordpres=
s-playground/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/Word=
Press/wordpress-playground/</a><br>
</div>
<div>[2]<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://github.com/WordPress/wordpres=
s-playground/tree/trunk/packages/php-wasm/compile" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://github.com/WordPress/wordpress-playground/tree/trunk/p=
ackages/php-wasm/compile</a><br>
</div>
<div>[3]<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://developer.wordpress.org/refer=
ence/classes/wp_html_processor/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https=
://developer.wordpress.org/reference/classes/wp_html_processor/</a><br>
</div>
<div>[4]<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://github.com/WordPress/wordpres=
s-develop/pull/6713" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.co=
m/WordPress/wordpress-develop/pull/6713</a><br>
</div>
<div>[5]<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://github.com/WordPress/blueprin=
ts-library/blob/87afea1f9a244062a14aeff3949aae054bf74b70/src/WordPress/Zip/=
ZipStreamReader.php" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.co=
m/WordPress/blueprints-library/blob/87afea1f9a244062a14aeff3949aae054bf74b7=
0/src/WordPress/Zip/ZipStreamReader.php</a><br>
</div>
<div>[6]<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://github.com/WordPress/sqlite-d=
atabase-integration/pull/157" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://=
github.com/WordPress/sqlite-database-integration/pull/157</a><br>
</div>
<div>[7]<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://github.com/WordPress/blueprin=
ts-library/blob/trunk/src/WordPress/AsyncHttp/Client.php" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/WordPress/blueprints-library/blob/tr=
unk/src/WordPress/AsyncHttp/Client.php</a><br>
</div>
<div>[8]<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://security.snyk.io/research/zip=
-slip-vulnerability" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://security.=
snyk.io/research/zip-slip-vulnerability</a><br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>-Adam<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
</div></blockquote>
<div style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;"><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;">Hey Adam,<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;"><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;">I actually went down something like =
this road for a bit when working at Automattic. My repo even probably still=
 exists in the graveyard repository=E2=80=A6 but I had plugins running in C=
# and Java over a couple of weeks. This was long before wasm was a thing, a=
nd while cool, nobody really could think of a use for it.<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;"><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;">It seems like you have a use for it =
though, and I=E2=80=99m reasonably certain you could get it working over ff=
i in a few weeks; yet you mention hosts not even having the curl extension =
installed, so I doubt that even if wasm came to be, it would be available o=
n those hosts.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>There are two major areas I have found that would benefit from having =
a WASM runtime in PHP:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Obviously, being able to run the same algorithms on the frontend and b=
ackend is a huge win for consistency in applications.<span class=3D"Apple-c=
onverted-space">=C2=A0</span>
</div>
</div>
</div></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>I'm not convinced. That's what they said about nodejs(same algos and s=
ame language on FE and BE). Except it's not really that consistent because =
there are several discrepancies between the browser and node runtime. I'll =
believe it when I see it.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>There=E2=80=99s a note about this point that I think is worth calling =
out, and that is something you probably already know, but JavaScript runtim=
es provide a standard library while a WASM runtime is mostly just a virtual=
 machine. There=E2=80=99s also nothing provided that I=E2=80=99m aware of i=
n WASM that offers filesystem access or network access, which are major are=
as where in-browser JavaScript and NodeJS backends differ (because the brow=
ser and server environments are fundamentally limited by different needs).<=
/div>
<div><br></div>
<div>As things stand, projects are compiled into WebAssembly and literally =
run identically in the different runtimes because it=E2=80=99s the bytecode=
 that=E2=80=99s specified, not specific functions or libraries. Whereas wit=
h JavaScript we=E2=80=99re shipping source code and interacting with very d=
ifferent systems, WASM bundles are a few steps removed from that, and have =
no DOM or system access to interact with.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I=E2=80=99m fairly confident we can say that it=E2=80=99s non-controve=
rsial that folks routinely run identical algorithms across different WASM r=
untimes in different environments. As you mentioned elsewhere, it=E2=80=99s=
 very much akin to how Java and Closure and Scala all run on the JVM just f=
ine together even being different languages, except in this case the runtim=
e is an isolated sandbox by default with no external system access. WASM is=
 a lovely little VM, successful in ways many before it haven=E2=80=99t been=
.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-s=
tandard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none=
;">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 20=
4, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div><div>Particularly with text-related =
algorithms it=E2=80=99s really easy for inconsistencies to develop due to t=
he features available in each languages standard library, as well as due to=
 differences in how each language handles and processes string.</div></div>=
</div></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>I can see the appeal of that though.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 20=
4, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div>
<div><br></div>
<div>The other major area is similar, and we=E2=80=99ve seen this with the =
HTML and XML parsing work recently undertaken in WordPress.</div>
</div></div></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;">Yeah you could talk about html parsing before 8.4 but with 8.4 we get l=
exbor (thanks to niels) and that's as good as it gets. Php already has beau=
tiful support for XML though so I'm not sure why you would implement a pars=
er yourself.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>It=E2=80=99s wonderful that PHP is finally getting a spec-compliant HT=
ML DOM parser for the first time in its history, but \Dom\HTMLDocument is n=
ot the right interface for every server need, and remains ill-suited for th=
e kind of work typical in a WordPress site, which needs to run on low memor=
y budgets, perform as fast as possible, and exceed the safety of what a gen=
eric DOM parser produces (there are cases that \Dom\HTMLDocument will still=
 introduce vulnerabilities into an HTML document because it=E2=80=99s able =
to create DOM trees that cannot be represented by HTML upon serialization, =
and as it implements the HTML spec, it cannot prevent creating those trees)=
. There are still a number of steps every developer needs to take to proper=
ly setup the parser and get the right results back, and the parser has to l=
oad the entire DOM tree into memory before any reads or manipulations can b=
e performed on it.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>WordPress=E2=80=99 HTML API is a near-zero memory overhead streaming H=
TML parser designed around safe-by-default reading and writing of HTML whic=
h requires no configuration or manual steps to get =E2=80=9Cthe right thing=
.=E2=80=9D It=E2=80=99s also significantly slower in user-space PHP than it=
 needs to be. I hope one day that PHP has its own copy of this streaming pa=
rser design, which is performant and available in every copy of PHP (which =
is another issue with code only available in extensions), but even if that =
never happens, running C or Rust code compiled to WebAssembly would provide=
 almost the same value as having that design implemented in the language.</=
div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-s=
tandard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none=
;"></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-s=
tandard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none=
;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div><div>T=
here are plenty of cases where efficient and spec-compliant operations are =
valuable, but these kinds of things tend to cost significantly more in user=
-space PHP.</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-s=
tandard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none=
;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div><div>B=
eing able to jump into WASM, even with the overhead of exchanging that data=
 and running another VM, would very likely result in a noticeable net impro=
vement in runtime performance.</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;">What exactly do you mean by jump into wasm? Like hand write it? Or you =
mean jump into a language that can be compiled to wasm? How about debugging=
 at runtime? And if you mean better performance than PHP, while that is lik=
ely, it isn't guaranteed. PHP is pretty fast and will be faster for some ro=
utines that are optimized by the engine. Wasm will never be as fast as exte=
nsions though because with extensions, all you're doing is extending the en=
gine. Same as any internal extension. With wasm you're interoperating with =
an entirely separate VM.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>By jumping into WASM I=E2=80=99m talking about the second thing you me=
ntion: calling functions written in languages compiled to WebAssembly. Even=
 with the overhead of marshaling data, the things that WebAssembly is good =
at are the things that PHP is slow at: specifically things like raw numeric=
 computation and string manipulation and parsing. I write a lot of parsing =
code and frequently am surprised at the overhead cost of string processing =
and array operations in PHP. There are a number of straightforward operatio=
ns available in C that just can=E2=80=99t be done in PHP. I don=E2=80=99t s=
ee this as a failing of PHP, just an aspect of how it is.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>For runtime debugging I don=E2=80=99t have any particular thoughts. I=
=E2=80=99m not aware of anyone who has ever tried to runtime debug CURL cal=
ls or things like `mb_convert_encoding()`. Functions invoked in the WASM ru=
ntime would more or less be library functions, like `ffmpeg`. Debugging wou=
ld likely most frequently be done as a library and dumped into the PHP appl=
ication with no expectation for debugging.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Effectively these are user-space PHP extensions, and are very convenie=
nt because they can be updated without recompiling PHP or begging web hosts=
 to update their PHP version, or to do that every other Tuesday, or wheneve=
r another security exploit is fixed in some image processor. On that note, =
the ability to sandbox image processing code (and any other user-provided c=
ontent) is a huge perk. Many of the exploits of past PHP extensions could b=
e contained inside the VM, which has limited ability to reach out into the =
system. Fixing vulnerabilities and bugs becomes something any auto-updater =
can accomplish, requiring no effort or interaction on the part of the host.=
</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-s=
tandard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none=
;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"auto=
">Additionally, it=E2=80=99s a perk being able to write such algorithms in =
languages that aid that development through more powerful type systems.</di=
v></blockquote></div></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;">We can agree on that. But I use C++ for my extensions so there's also t=
hat.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-s=
tandard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none=
;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"auto=
">There=E2=80=99s additional value in a number of other separate tasks. Con=
verting images or generating thumbnails is a good example where raw perform=
ance is less of a concern than being able to ensure that the image library =
is available and not exposing the host system to risk.<span class=3D"Apple-=
converted-space">=C2=A0</span>
</div></blockquote></div></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;">Imo this is where FFI should shine but I'll admit that the current impl=
ementation is lacking in both security and functionality.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-s=
tandard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none=
;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"auto=
">I imagine plenty of =E2=80=9CPHP lite-extensions=E2=80=9D appearing in th=
is space because it would give people the opportunity to experiment with fe=
atures that are impractical in user-space PHP before fully committing the l=
anguage itself to that interface or library. It would extend the reach of P=
HP=E2=80=99s usability because it would make possible for folks, who happen=
 to be running on cheap shared hosts, to run more complicated processing ta=
sks than are practical today. While big software shops and SaaS vendors do =
and can run their own custom PHP extensions, there=E2=80=99s not great way =
to share those generally to people without the same full control over their=
 stack.</div></blockquote></div></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;">Shared hosting for php gets you the worst possible version of php. </di=
v>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Couldn=E2=80=99t have said it better myself!</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0,=
 0); font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:=
 400; text-decoration: none;">Can't recompile to enable any bundled extensi=
on, can't install any new extensions, so how exactly would you approach thi=
s? Wasm bundled with the engine by default? Or some kind of opt in mechanis=
m that shared hosters won't even be able to use?</div></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>As with many of the things I=E2=80=99ve been writing on this list late=
ly, to me, an embedded WASM runtime makes most sense as a central language =
feature and available everywhere PHP is deployed. There are a few core basi=
c subsystems that either are foundational to the environment PHP operates i=
n (for example, web-related technologies like HTTP and HTML and URLs) or wh=
ich bring so much value to the language that it opens up brand new paradigm=
s or potentially removes major maintenance burdens.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>If we could ship `imagemagick` as a WASM extension there would be no n=
eed for the `imagemagick` extension. The security environment out of the bo=
x is so much better; it=E2=80=99s not worth the lost potential for performa=
nce that a native extension offers. Someone may not agree with this, and th=
at=E2=80=99s fine because they can always install a native extension or uti=
lize the FFI on infrastructure they control.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I think at times WordPress sees a very different picture of the world =
than many great PHP projects see. Our reality is that we=E2=80=99re writing=
 code that runs on hardware we don=E2=80=99t control or even know about. We=
 cannot in any way install or force certain extensions to be present. The w=
orst possible version of PHP is literally the constraint at which we are al=
lowed to code. Anything beyond that and we can=E2=80=99t ship it because a =
large fraction of the internet will start crashing. It=E2=80=99s frustratin=
g, but also an honor to be able to ensure that people who can=E2=80=99t aff=
ord high end servers can still build their own place on the world wide web.=
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Over the past several years, though, WordPress has also been a positiv=
e influence on persuading hosts to update their PHP versions, because PHP h=
as gotten better enough that the argument is easy: upgrade to PHP 7 and you=
r data center costs will drop X%. It=E2=80=99s not too hard to imagine winn=
ing similarly on the security argument.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>WASM code on memory-constrained, oversubscribed, CPU-poor hosts is sti=
ll considerably better for certain kinds of computation than user-space PHP=
 code on memory-constrained, oversubscribed, CPU-poor hosts.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-=
standard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: non=
e;"><br></div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-s=
tandard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none=
;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 20=
4, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;"></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;"><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;">However, plugins basically work via =
hooks/filters. So as long as you register the right listeners and handle se=
rialization properly, you can simply run a separate process for the plugin,=
 or call a socket for =E2=80=9Cremote=E2=80=9D plugins.<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;"><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;">I don=E2=80=99t see anything stoppin=
g anyone from implementing that today.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;"><br></div>
<div id=3D"m_6458481777469535973m_4230091655337564398m_-3040290962447134337=
sig121229152" style=3D"font-family: -webkit-standard; font-variant-caps: no=
rmal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none;">=E2=80=94 Rob</div>
</blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I=E2=80=99m excited to see this conversation. I=E2=80=99v=
e wanted to propose it a number of times myself.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Warmly,</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Dennis Snell=C2=A0</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>I actually love wasm, I'm currently in the process of compiling my min=
i php runtime to wasm (basically a browser only version of 3v4l). I'm not a=
gainst this for any personal reasons, I'm simply not sure it's the right ap=
proach.</div>
</div></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>That sounds awesome. The WordPress Playground ships a copy of PHP comp=
iled to WASM, and it=E2=80=99s been an incredible journey realizing just wh=
at=E2=80=99s capable with this technology. It=E2=80=99s really boosted the =
developer experience working on WordPress itself and also that of those bui=
lding their own projects using WordPress. Some are already bringing in libr=
aries like ffmpeg to convert images and media on the frontend, though it=
=E2=80=99s sad that can=E2=80=99t also be done on the server yet.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: -webkit-s=
tandard; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; text-decoration: none=
;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>
<br>Cheers,</div>
<div>Hammed</div>
</div></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Hope you have a nice weekend. Cheers.</div>
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