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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 15:56:04 +0200
Message-ID: <CAMYtjApWYww44VWQ=3K78WTtiz-SQQmCCsJcLMOj0r_G5B1v8g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [Discussion] Using and Mentioning Third-party
 Packages in PHP Documentation and Web Projects
To: Deleu <deleugyn@gmail.com>
Cc: internals@lists.php.net
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From: gotrunks@gmail.com (Pere Orga)

Missatge de Deleu <deleugyn@gmail.com> del dia dt., 27 d=E2=80=99ag. 2024 a=
 les 13:55:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 2:06=E2=80=AFAM Andreas Heigl <andreas@heigl.org>=
 wrote:
>>
>>
>> I see this a bid differently to be honest. While I understand that using
>> third party packages in our internal tools might make things easier in
>> the short term it will cause a lot or additional work in the long term.
>>
>> Currently we have a lot of small scripts that do one thing. And they do
>> it for a long time with very little maintenance effort. Blowing these
>> scripts up with third-party libraries will mean that we will have to put
>> in much more maintenance effort for either keeping the dependencies up
>> to date or mostly rewriting the script the moment a change needs to
>> happen as the libraries will be outdated.
>>
>> There are though some actual console applications like Pdt where it
>> might be valid to use third party dependencies. But also here I'd ask
>> whether the maintainability will be increased. A totally different
>> question though is whether we actually need to maintain a special tool
>> for building the docs or whether we can use a pre-existing tool for
>> that. I am mainly thinking about either phpDocumentor or a default
>> docbook renderer. But that is a totally differnt topic IMO.
>>
>> So I'd see this exactly the other way around:
>>
>> usage for infra needs very careful consideration to not increase the
>> maintenance-burden on those that actually 'do' the maintenance.
>
>
> I like the fact this has been brought up as it seems an equally important=
 consideration from my perspective. On one hand I remember reading about ho=
w PHP Internals could hugely benefit from more volunteers to help maintain =
the auxiliary projects of the language - which doesn't require C knowledge.=
 Perhaps this 'need' might be outdated now with the Foundation hiring emplo=
yees to work on PHP. On the other hand there's this really good point about=
 not creating a burden for existing maintainers of existing tools. Ultimate=
ly, I find it important to consider that a tool that has been "mostly no ma=
intenance cost" for 10~20 years, then it might be following PHP development=
 practices so long gone that it's harder to capture new volunteers. I under=
stand there's a historical context in the 2000's where PHP frameworks would=
 come and go and most companies had their own in-house framework. That real=
ity is long-gone and community projects like Symfony, Laravel and Composer =
are sustainable businesses that simultaneously rely on PHP and make PHP bet=
ter. Nowadays it is unlikely that a PHP developer will pick up greenfield w=
ork with the language without using some reliable tool provided by the comm=
unity.
>
> As it has been said, it is a disservice to the PHP project to be stuck on=
 vanilla PHP for things that require improvements, maintainers, revamp, etc=
.
>

It would be helpful if you could share examples of open-source,
long-term websites built using frameworks like Laravel, Symfony,
Laminas, CakePHP, or similar, especially those to which you have
contributed, ideally maintained by volunteers.

--=20
Pere Orga