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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [Concept] Flip relative function lookup order (global,
 then local)
In-Reply-To: <f32382b4-3bee-47ab-88ed-ad2ab154c319@app.fastmail.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 19:43:58 +0700
Cc: internals@lists.php.net
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Message-ID: <7607FD64-5572-466E-9866-63C2536B2A09@koalephant.com>
References: <21D6F160-5EAE-44FA-907B-E1DAAC1B8D75@rwec.co.uk>
 <53BD062A-4D7F-4E5D-852E-6D27641213A8@koalephant.com>
 <f32382b4-3bee-47ab-88ed-ad2ab154c319@app.fastmail.com>
To: "Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]" <imsop.php@rwec.co.uk>
From: php-lists@koalephant.com (Stephen Reay)



> On 23 Aug 2024, at 17:29, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] <imsop.php@rwec.co.uk> =
wrote:
>=20
> On Fri, 23 Aug 2024, at 10:58, Stephen Reay wrote:
>> Making relative function names do the opposite of relative class =
names=20
>> sounds like a great way to permanently kill any prospects of=20
>> encouraging developers to use regular namespaced functions in place =
of=20
>> static classes as "bag of functions", which is what we keep hearing =
we=20
>> should use - most notably on a recent RFC to embody the concept of a=20=

>> static class.
>=20
> That's why I brought up the point about making it easy to explicitly =
say "relative to current", just as you can explicitly say "relative to =
global" with a single "\".
>=20
> It's also worth remembering that this whole discussion has no effect =
on using functions that are defined in a *different* namespace. The =
below code might benefit from function autoloading, but would not be =
helped, hurt, or changed in any way by any of the proposals in this =
thread:
>=20
> namespace Acme\Foo\Controller;
>=20
> use function Acme\StringUtils\better_strlen;
> use Acme\StandardUtils as Std;
>=20
> $foo =3D Std\generate_something();
> $len =3D better_strlen($foo);
> \Acme\Debug\out($len);
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
> --=20
> Rowan Tommins
> [IMSoP]
>=20


I understand what you are proposing, and I understand that it doesn't =
affect using *other* namespaces.

But let's be realistic here:  if adopted this would mean developers have =
to understand and internalise two concepts of how relative-local (or =
unqualified if you prefer that term) symbol names work, that are =
completely opposite to each other, essentially forever, unless you =
expect yet another flop to follow this flip?

This change would also break existing code that does "the right thing", =
and has the potential to arbitrarily break perfectly valid userland code =
*any time a new global function is added*, forever.=20

And the reason for all this was...

> prefixing all calls with `\`, or adding a `use function` at the top of =
every file is annoying and noisy.



For all the handwringing this list does over backwards compatibility =
breaks, it absolutely astounds me that there is even consideration of =
such a massive BC break, with the added bonus of guaranteed future BC =
breaks, to save typing one character per function call (or =
realistically, configuring your IDE/code linter to do it for you).


This whole discussion is predicated on "people don't use functions much =
so its not a big BC break" literally at the same time as not one but two =
different discussions about an RFC for function autoloading, =
specifically because we're constantly being told that static classes are =
"wrong" and namespaced functions are "right".


> Sorry to reply to the same message twice, but as a concrete example, =
consider this code:

I realise you replied to me twice, but for the sake of clarity let me be =
perfectly clear:

I understand absolutely what you are proposing.

I'm saying it's a ridiculous idea (the whole concept, not just your =
specific "solution") to propose that such a core facet of the language =
be changed, because some people both "want the absolute best =
performance" but also "don't like a leading backslash". Hidden BC breaks =
*forever* to gain 2-4% performance benefit without typing "\". If you =
told me my calendar is wrong and today is actually April 1st I would =
100% believe you based the contents of this thread.


Cheers


Stephen=20