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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [Concept] Flip relative function lookup order (global,
 then local)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2024 19:15:19 -0400
In-Reply-To: <d4b18a48-93b0-49c8-821d-f9298e831188@rwec.co.uk>
Cc: internals@lists.php.net
To: "Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]" <imsop.php@rwec.co.uk>
References: <CAPyj-LCoBY2bPHLmsyONYDbY9aRSraLz5QNskeTiWfpMD0pTSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c385b525-37f7-446b-aa96-72272ef9e407@app.fastmail.com>
 <CAPyj-LA4kTJTrQZUkn9kNMvWdH6SsFGU5mBO6EcpuUcRpXesgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d4b18a48-93b0-49c8-821d-f9298e831188@rwec.co.uk>
From: mike@newclarity.net (Mike Schinkel)


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> On Aug 22, 2024, at 5:32 PM, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] =
<imsop.php@rwec.co.uk> wrote:
> I was thinking about this earlier, and how the migration is pretty =
much the same (and equally automatable) in either direction:
>=20
> * If unqualified calls become always local, then every global function =
call needs a use statement or prefixing with "\".
> * If they become always global, then every local function call needs a =
use statement or prefixing with "namespace\".
>=20
> But the first option probably requires changes in the majority of PHP =
files in use anywhere; whereas the second only affects a small minority =
of code bases, and a small minority of code in those.
>=20
> BUT, if people already complain about "\" being ugly, having to write =
"namespace\" is going to make them REALLY grumpy...
>=20
> So maybe at the same time (or, probably, in advance) we need to come =
up with a nicer syntax for explicitly referencing the current namespace.
>=20
> Unfortunately, finding unused syntax is hard, which is why we have "\" =
in the first place (and for the record, I think it works just fine), but =
maybe something like "_\" could work? Giving us:
>=20
> namespace Foo;
>=20
> $native_length =3D strlen('hello'); # same as \strlen('hello')
> $foo_length =3D _\strlen('hello'); #  same as \Foo\strlen('hello')
>=20
If having to type `\strlen()` is ugly =E2=80=94 and I agree that is it =
=E2=80=94 then having to type `_\strlen()` is what in university we =
would call "fugly," to emphasize just how much worse something was vs. =
just run-of-the-mill "ugly."

Having to prefix with a name like Foo, e.g. Foo\strlen() is FAR =
PREFERABLE to _\strlen() because at least it provides satiating =
information rather than the empty calories of a cryptic shorthand.  =
#jmtcw, anyway.

> If I had a time machine, I'd campaign for "unqualified means local" in =
PHP 5.3, and we'd all be used to writing "\strlen" by now; but =
"unqualified means global" feels much more achievable from where we are.
>=20
If I had a time machine I would campaign for real packages instead of =
what namespaces turned out to me, and that used sigils that do not =
double as the escape character for strings, but then both of us digress.=20=


-Mike=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Aug 22, 2024, at 5:32 PM, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:imsop.php@rwec.co.uk" =
class=3D"">imsop.php@rwec.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"">I was thinking about this earlier, and how the =
migration is
      pretty much the same (and equally automatable) in either
      direction:<br class=3D"">
    </p><p class=3D"">* If unqualified calls become always local, then =
every global
      function call needs a use statement or prefixing with "\".<br =
class=3D"">
      * If they become always global, then every local function call
      needs a use statement or prefixing with "namespace\".</p><p =
class=3D"">But the first option probably requires changes in the =
majority of
      PHP files in use anywhere; whereas the second only affects a small
      minority of code bases, and a small minority of code in =
those.</p><p class=3D"">BUT, if people already complain about "\" being =
ugly, having to
      write "namespace\" is going to make them REALLY grumpy...</p><p =
class=3D"">So maybe at the same time (or, probably, in advance) we need =
to
      come up with a nicer syntax for explicitly referencing the current
      namespace.</p><p class=3D"">Unfortunately, finding unused syntax =
is hard, which is why we
      have "\" in the first place (and for the record, I think it works
      just fine), but maybe something like "_\" could work? Giving =
us:<br class=3D"">
    </p><p class=3D"">namespace Foo;</p><p class=3D"">$native_length =3D =
strlen('hello'); # same as \strlen('hello')<br class=3D"">
      $foo_length =3D _\strlen('hello'); #&nbsp; same as =
\Foo\strlen('hello')<br class=3D""></p></div></div></blockquote><div>If =
having to type `\strlen()` is ugly =E2=80=94 and I agree that is it =E2=80=
=94 then having to type `_\strlen()` is what in university we would call =
"fugly," to emphasize just how much worse something was vs. just =
run-of-the-mill "ugly."</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Having to =
prefix with a name like Foo, e.g. Foo\strlen() is FAR PREFERABLE to =
_\strlen() because at least it provides satiating information rather =
than the empty calories of a cryptic shorthand. &nbsp;#jmtcw, =
anyway.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"">
    </p><p class=3D"">If I had a time machine, I'd campaign for =
"unqualified means
      local" in PHP 5.3, and we'd all be used to writing "\strlen" by
      now; but "unqualified means global" feels much more achievable
      from where we are.</p></div></blockquote>If I had a time machine I =
would campaign for real packages instead of what namespaces turned out =
to me, and that used sigils that do not double as the escape character =
for strings, but then both of us digress.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>-Mike</div></body></html>=

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