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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [DISCUSSION] C++ Enhancements in Zend API
In-Reply-To: <CAM7F2-_AJfRhuJ0rzA8sRQJkoSnQ=5zitOLcgJsze_ybk68=PA@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 18:57:18 -0400
Cc: PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>,
 Pascal Chevrel <pascalc@gmail.com>,
 John Coggeshall <john@coggeshall.org>,
 Levi Morrison <levi.morrison@datadoghq.com>,
 Arvids Godjuks <arvids.godjuks@gmail.com>
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To: Lanre <lnearwaju@gmail.com>
From: mike@newclarity.net (Mike Schinkel)

> On Aug 14, 2024, at 5:27 PM, Lanre <lnearwaju@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>> On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 2:32=E2=80=AFPM Mike Schinkel =
<mike@newclarity.net> wrote:
>> > On Aug 14, 2024, at 3:05 PM, Arvids Godjuks =
<arvids.godjuks@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > PHP has C as core and has allowed C++ for extensions. Expanding =
that support is a no-brainer, especially since modern C++ has stepped up =
in major ways and I don't think C sees a lot of development any more, so =
it makes sense to move towards C++.
>>=20
>> IF there is a serious consideration given to evolving PHP to be =
written in another language =E2=80=94 vs. just a newer version of C =E2=80=
=94 I think any reasonable analysis would indicate that none of the =
languages proposed in this thread would be appropriate; not Rust, not =
C++, and not Go.  Why not?
> Can you point out where either of us suggested writing PHP in another =
language?

Arvids wrote "I don't think C sees a lot of development any more, so it =
makes sense to move towards C++."=20

That statement was why I wrote my email.

> You might be mixing this up with the C11 thread, which has nothing to =
do with this.=20

No, not the case.

> All I'm proposing is improving the current C++ support in the engine.=20=


I was not replying to your email(s). I was replying to Arvids' email =
which was worded as if moving to C++ for PHP was a foregone conclusion.

> https://github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/Zend/zend_portability.h =
already guarantees compatibility with c++ thanks to the BEGIN_EXTERN_C() =
and END_EXTERN_C() macros defined right at the top and that are used all =
around the engine. Notice how that macro compiles to nothing when C++ =
isn't being used? I'm simply proposing more of those.

I made no comment pro nor con regarding that proposal. =20

> All of this is moot, it would be a huge investment and a whole other =
discussion to port PHP to another language. That has nothing to do with =
my proposal.

I could be wrong as I am not an expert in either C or Zig, but from what =
I understand from others who have adopted Zig for C code bases it would =
not be a huge investment at all. Which is why I proposed it.=20

> Again, I will reiterate that these proposed changes will not affect =
the current course of PHP. Development will go on as usual and any bugs =
introduced by this proposal will be contained to C++ extensions =
interacting with the code. C devs can act like this doesn't even exist =
because as far as the C compiler is concerned, it doesn't. On the other =
hand C++ devs won't have to keep reinventing the wheel whenever they =
have to build an extension with C++. What is a php extension if not a =
wrapper for a C/C++ lib?
>=20
> IF I wanted PHP to be implemented in C++, I would simply fork it. How =
many thousand RFCs do you think it will take to get anything reasonable =
done? I'm baffled that I actually have to convince y'all to IMPROVE the =
current support for C++, but calm down, no one wants you to quit.

Again, I did not comment on your proposal pro nor con.=20

OTOH, as others discussed moving to Rust or C++ I wanted to ensure a =
more compelling alternative =E2=80=94 Zig =E2=80=94 was at least =
mentioned and considered, assuming a change is being/will be considered =
at all.

-Mike

P.S. BTW, didn't you already say this conversation was a waste of your =
time and imply that you were done with the thread? Then why would I be =
replying to you?=20