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Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 14:11:47 -0600
Message-ID: <CAM7F2-895zXfqyDLt9C0_WYTkAAP9Q4wG86Xz6pn8xHNE2wfFw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [DISCUSSION] C++ Enhancements in Zend API
To: John Coggeshall <john@coggeshall.org>
Cc: Levi Morrison <levi.morrison@datadoghq.com>, PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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From: lnearwaju@gmail.com (Lanre)

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On Mon, Aug 12, 2024 at 1:36=E2=80=AFPM John Coggeshall <john@coggeshall.or=
g> wrote:

> lol. Listen friend, I've been involved in PHP internals on and off for
> over 20 years -- and so has Pierre. You'd do well to respond with a littl=
e
> more consideration instead of flying off the handle calling us ignorant
> rust developers lol.
>
> The idea of enhancing support for C++ makes no sense. It's a waste of tim=
e
> and energy. The entire industry is actively trying to to move AWAY from
> C/C++ in general, not to mention someone has to maintain it after you get
> bored insulting people here and move on. This is doubly true when the
> benefit is a handful of people who want to might write some extension in
> C++.
>
> On Aug 12 2024, at 2:59 pm, Lanre <lnearwaju@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I didn=E2=80=99t realize this was an open mic for Rust devs to flaunt the=
ir
> ignorance, but since you=E2=80=99ve decided to chime in, let me spell it =
out for
> you. Rust has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, so try to st=
ay
> on topic. Nowhere did I mention a move to C++; perhaps reading
> comprehension isn=E2=80=99t your strong suit.
>
>
> PHP already supports C++ for extensions, as evidenced by the intl
> extension. The current support is painfully basic, which forces developer=
s
> to waste time on redundant wrappers or use third-party libraries like
> PHP-CPP. What I=E2=80=99m proposing is a way to improve this support so C=
++ devs
> don=E2=80=99t have to keep doing the same menial work over and over again=
.
>
> All of this will be wrapped in macros, so C compilers won=E2=80=99t even =
notice
> the compatibility layer and will compile as usual. It=E2=80=99s a simple,=
 elegant
> solution=E2=80=94something you might not be familiar with, given your aff=
inity for
> Rust=E2=80=99s convoluted approach to everything.
>
> Cheers,
> Lanre.
>
>
It=E2=80=99s impressive that you=E2=80=99ve been involved with PHP internal=
s, but it=E2=80=99s
clear you haven=E2=80=99t a clue about what I=E2=80=99m proposing and are c=
ontributing
nothing of value. You=E2=80=99d have to be seriously naive to believe that =
=E2=80=9Cthe
entire industry is actively trying to move AWAY from C/C++.=E2=80=9D

The fact is, C is still the backbone of nearly everything. If you=E2=80=99r=
e
building anything that interacts with an OS or embedded device, you=E2=80=
=99re
either writing in C/C++ (C++ for Windows) or working with some C wrapper.
Rust=E2=80=99s approach to low-level implementation is laughable unless you=
=E2=80=99re
prepared to abuse unsafe or use Cranelift. Even simple things like JIT
optimizations are considered unsafe in Rust.

Swift, which is heavily used in macOS, is essentially an LLVM
wrapper=E2=80=94meaning it relies on C++. The recent advancements in Swift=
=E2=80=99s
interop with C++ highlight just how crucial C++ remains. Then there's Adobe
apps, Microsoft products, browsers, and virtually every game and game
engine that are all implemented in C++.

So, unless you=E2=80=99re living in a fantasy world where everyone is aband=
oning
proven technology for glorified scripting languages,  I suggest you step
back and recognize the reality of the situation.

I'm sure the idea of enhancing C++ makes no sense to you, and would be a
waste of your time and energy, but not everyone is that stupid/incompetent
so even if i do get bored of maintaining it, literally any C++ dev can pick
it up, it really is that simple.

Cheers,

Lanre.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Aug 12, 2024 at 1:36=E2=80=AF=
PM John Coggeshall &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:john@coggeshall.org">john@coggesha=
ll.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div>lol. Listen friend, I&#39;ve been involved in PHP internals on a=
nd off for over 20 years -- and so has Pierre. You&#39;d do well to respond=
 with a little more consideration instead of flying off the handle calling =
us ignorant rust developers lol. </div><br><div>The idea of enhancing suppo=
rt for C++ makes no sense. It&#39;s a waste of time and energy. The entire =
industry is actively trying to to move AWAY from C/C++ in general, not to m=
ention someone has to maintain it after you get bored insulting people here=
 and move on. This is doubly true when the benefit is a handful of people w=
ho want to might write some extension in C++. </div><br><div>On Aug 12 2024=
, at 2:59 pm, Lanre &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lnearwaju@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">lnearwaju@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><blockquote><div><div><br></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div>I didn=E2=80=99t realize this was a=
n open mic for Rust devs to flaunt their ignorance, but since you=E2=80=99v=
e decided to chime in, let me spell it out for you. Rust has absolutely not=
hing to do with this discussion, so try to stay on topic. Nowhere did I men=
tion a move to C++; perhaps reading comprehension isn=E2=80=99t your strong=
 suit.</div><br><br><div>PHP already supports C++ for extensions, as eviden=
ced by the intl extension. The current support is painfully basic, which fo=
rces developers to waste time on redundant wrappers or use third-party libr=
aries like PHP-CPP. What I=E2=80=99m proposing is a way to improve this sup=
port so C++ devs don=E2=80=99t have to keep doing the same menial work over=
 and over again.</div><br><div>All of this will be wrapped in macros, so C =
compilers won=E2=80=99t even notice the compatibility layer and will compil=
e as usual. It=E2=80=99s a simple, elegant solution=E2=80=94something you m=
ight not be familiar with, given your affinity for Rust=E2=80=99s convolute=
d approach to everything.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>=
Lanre.</div></div></div></blockquote></blockquote><div><br></div><div><p>It=
=E2=80=99s impressive that you=E2=80=99ve been involved with PHP internals,=
 but it=E2=80=99s clear you haven=E2=80=99t a clue about what I=E2=80=99m p=
roposing and are contributing nothing of value. You=E2=80=99d have to be se=
riously naive to believe that =E2=80=9Cthe entire industry is actively tryi=
ng to move AWAY from C/C++.=E2=80=9D</p><p>The fact is, C is still the back=
bone of nearly everything. If you=E2=80=99re building anything that interac=
ts with an OS or embedded device, you=E2=80=99re either writing in C/C++ (C=
++ for Windows) or working with some C wrapper. Rust=E2=80=99s approach to =
low-level implementation is laughable unless you=E2=80=99re prepared to abu=
se <code>unsafe</code> or use Cranelift. Even simple things like JIT optimi=
zations are considered unsafe in Rust.</p><p>Swift, which is heavily used i=
n macOS, is essentially an LLVM wrapper=E2=80=94meaning it relies on C++. T=
he recent advancements in Swift=E2=80=99s interop with C++ highlight just h=
ow crucial C++ remains. Then there&#39;s Adobe apps, Microsoft products, br=
owsers, and virtually every game and game engine that are all implemented i=
n C++.</p><p>So, unless you=E2=80=99re living in a fantasy world where ever=
yone is abandoning proven technology for glorified scripting languages,=C2=
=A0 I suggest you step back and recognize the reality of the situation.</p>=
<p>I&#39;m sure the idea of enhancing C++ makes no sense to you, and would =
be a waste of your time and energy, but not everyone is that stupid/incompe=
tent so even if i do get bored of maintaining it, literally any C++ dev can=
 pick it up, it really is that simple.</p><p>Cheers,</p><p>Lanre.</p></div>=
</div></div>

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