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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [PHP-Dev] Versioned Packagers (Iteration IV)
In-Reply-To: <5e9ddf7b-e2ef-44df-85a6-623c220f2da4@app.fastmail.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 12:41:53 -0400
Cc: php internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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To: "Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]" <imsop.php@rwec.co.uk>
From: mike@newclarity.net (Mike Schinkel)


> On Jul 11, 2024, at 10:32 AM, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] =
<imsop.php@rwec.co.uk> wrote:
>=20
> On Thu, 11 Jul 2024, at 12:26, Mike Schinkel wrote:
>> Let me use an analogy.  Envision two people on a city council of a =
small town.  One proposes the city should
>> implement a water, power and sewer grid so anyone who wants to build =
a new home or business in the city=20
>> would be able to do so easily.=20
>=20
> This is a terrible analogy, IMHO. Here's a more pertinent one:

Sure, we can go back and forth and discredit each others analogies, but =
that's not going to change your mind nor likely mine. =20

The crux of our disagreement is I see value on infrastructure services =
and you evidently do not.

> If you want to solve autoloading in WordPress, this is the wrong =
forum.=20
>=20
> Firstly, anything you do in core will not be adopted by WordPress, =
because it will be 5+ years before their minimum PHP version is high =
enough to use it. You're going to have to write a userland polyfill =
anyway.

That is what you are missing on this point.=20

If PHP supported a cascading class map autoloader then a developer could =
build their sites and their plugins for that version of PHP without =
having to depend on WordPress changing to support it. And if they are =
distributing plugins they could build fallback mechanisms for earlier =
versions of PHP plus also recommend to their users that they upgrade to =
the newer versions of PHP.=20

It is about empowering individuals developers, not about empowering =
WordPress.=20

But, like I said, since anyone could no it, evidently no one will.

> Secondly, mapping namespaces to directories isn't the hard part for =
WordPress. The hard part is integrating into their existing plugin =
installer system - which already has a system for metadata, it doesn't =
need a new config file - and persuading plugin authors to actually use =
it.

No, integrating into the plugin system would actually be quite easy per =
the class map design we've been discussing. I know the internals of that =
system well, I've probably debugged through it literally hundreds of =
times.

And sorry, the existing metadata system in WordPress has no information =
about plugin dependencies and is inadequate for that purpose. It only =
has an ini-like plugin header with basic information and is not suitable =
for dependencies. Also, "persuading plugin authors to actually use it" =
won't change a thing because they are already using it effectively, =
generally speaking.

> Maybe you also need Composer to make some changes to control it =
without the CLI, so plugins can list their requirements and have them =
installed centrally.

That well could be.

> That's also not a subject for this list.

And we disagree, yet again.

Anyway, I am trying to avoid this thread so I can instead invest time in =
research and proof-of-concept work. Please don't pull me back in.

-Mike=