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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [PHP-Dev] Versioned Packagers (Iteration IV)
In-Reply-To: <1d0df8f2-541a-4302-a658-4d7d30003342@seld.be>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 07:09:19 -0400
Cc: PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Message-ID: <86B396B3-851D-425B-97AD-356304403A76@newclarity.net>
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To: Jordi Boggiano <j.boggiano@seld.be>
From: mike@newclarity.net (Mike Schinkel)

> On Jul 10, 2024, at 5:50 AM, Jordi Boggiano <j.boggiano@seld.be> =
wrote:
>=20
> On 2024-07-09 05:24, Mike Schinkel wrote:
>>=20
>> =20
>> And this sentence is why I chose to reply to your message.  That =
assumption itself blocks the needs of user-managed apps.
>>=20
>> (Did you happen to read my compare-and-contrast of user-managed vs. =
developer-managed apps from a few days ago?)
>>=20
>> I feel it is likely those who have never worked professionally in PHP =
on user-managed apps like WordPress  =E2=80=94 which I assume describes =
you accurately? =E2=80=94 are probably just simply unaware of the =
problems that your assumptions cause for user-managed apps. And yes, =
some developers have no empathy for others who have different =
circumstances, but I honestly don't think you (Rowan) are in the =
category.=20
>>=20
> Just one note here: You keep saying user-managed apps but from what I =
can tell, these problems really only apply to WordPress.

There are numerous others, such as Joomla, Phalcon, CMS Made Simple, =
TextPattern, OpenCart, ExpressionEngine and ProcessWire.=20

But yes, the fact that WordPress has well over 50% marketshare of CMS =
and dwarfs all the others by well over an order of magnitude makes it =
appear that it only really applies to WordPress.

Which, given the number of users for each, it kinda does. But that also =
begs the question if dismissing the PHP app with by-far the largest user =
base is the smartest approach?

> There are others like Contao CMS who decided as a project they wanted =
user-managed plugins but also wanted to rely on Composer and its =
ecosystem of packages, and they made it happen [1]

I just scoured the Contao website and the websites of a few of their 3rd =
party extensions and after quite a bit of detective work I found how =
Contao allows user-managed plugins, per se.  They did not make it =
obvious on their site how to do it, though.

First you have to download and install a `.phar file called Contao =
Manager[1] and install it on your server. Which yeah, a developer could =
do for an end-user, but most end-users are going to be blocked by this.=20=


Second, to use Contao Manager you have to have a PHP installation that =
allows using the functions proc_open()/proc_close() and =
allow_url_fopen() which AFAIK most responsible web hosts lock down on a =
shared server, which is the majority of WP hosting. The reason those are =
required is Contao Manager is just using Composer on the backend via CLI =
to install and manage plugins.=20

So while yes, Contao does allow users to manage plugins, that was not =
what I meant when I made a distinction between user-managed and =
developer-managed apps. To me, Contao is squarely in the =
developer-managed app category.

> So while I have some sympathy for all developers stuck maintaining WP =
sites, and plugin authors not willing to do everything themselves and =
deciding to bundle a vendor dir with Composer-installed dependencies.. =
It feels like you're all kinda held hostage with the choices of the =
WordPress project, which sucks for sure but saying it is unfixable is =
not helping.

How are you envisioning it be fixed?  =20

If there are ways to fix things that do not require WordPress to make a =
change with major BC breakage nor require users upgrade web hosts to =
support dedicated features I would be very happy to find out what those =
are.

And yes, to concur by also clarify, developers are held hostage by the =
*combined* choices of the WordPress and the PHP projects. It is kinda =
like being a kid with needs but also with feuding parents. =C2=AF\_(=E3=83=
=84)_/=C2=AF

-Mike

[1] https://docs.contao.org/manual/en/installation/contao-manager/