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Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 11:50:49 +0200
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [PHP-Dev] Versioned Packagers (Iteration IV)
To: Mike Schinkel <mike@newclarity.net>,
 "Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]" <imsop.php@rwec.co.uk>
Cc: internals@lists.php.net
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From: j.boggiano@seld.be (Jordi Boggiano)

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On 2024-07-09 05:24, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> And this sentence is why I chose to reply to your message.  That assumption itself blocks the needs of user-managed apps.
>
> (Did you happen to read my compare-and-contrast of user-managed vs. developer-managed apps from a few days ago?)
>
> I feel it is likely those who have never worked professionally in PHP on user-managed apps like WordPress  — which I assume describes you accurately? — are probably just simply unaware of the problems that your assumptions cause for user-managed apps. And yes, some developers have no empathy for others who have different circumstances, but I honestly don't think you (Rowan) are in the category.

Just one note here: You keep saying user-managed apps but from what I 
can tell, these problems really only apply to WordPress.

There are others like Contao CMS who decided as a project they wanted 
user-managed plugins but also wanted to rely on Composer and its 
ecosystem of packages, and they made it happen [1].

So while I have some sympathy for all developers stuck maintaining WP 
sites, and plugin authors not willing to do everything themselves and 
deciding to bundle a vendor dir with Composer-installed dependencies.. 
It feels like you're all kinda held hostage with the choices of the 
WordPress project, which sucks for sure but saying it is unfixable is 
not helping.

As for the rest of the thread, I feel like everyone needs to take a few 
days to chill because it's getting a bit heated around here.

Best,
Jordi

[1] https://docs.contao.org/manual/en/installation/contao-manager/

-- 
Jordi Boggiano
@seldaek -https://seld.be

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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2024-07-09 05:24, Mike Schinkel
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:B814CAB0-50DA-4EB3-97EE-72542EFCD184@newclarity.net"><span
      style="white-space: pre-wrap">
</span>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">And this sentence is why I chose to reply to your message.  That assumption itself blocks the needs of user-managed apps.

(Did you happen to read my compare-and-contrast of user-managed vs. developer-managed apps from a few days ago?)

I feel it is likely those who have never worked professionally in PHP on user-managed apps like WordPress  — which I assume describes you accurately? — are probably just simply unaware of the problems that your assumptions cause for user-managed apps. And yes, some developers have no empathy for others who have different circumstances, but I honestly don't think you (Rowan) are in the category. 
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p>Just one note here: You keep saying user-managed apps but from
      what I can tell, these problems really only apply to WordPress.</p>
    <p>There are others like Contao CMS who decided as a project they
      wanted user-managed plugins but also wanted to rely on Composer
      and its ecosystem of packages, and they made it happen [1].</p>
    <p>So while I have some sympathy for all developers stuck
      maintaining WP sites, and plugin authors not willing to do
      everything themselves and deciding to bundle a vendor dir with
      Composer-installed dependencies.. It feels like you're all kinda
      held hostage with the choices of the WordPress project, which
      sucks for sure but saying it is unfixable is not helping.</p>
    <p>As for the rest of the thread, I feel like everyone needs to take
      a few days to chill because it's getting a bit heated around here.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Best,<br>
      Jordi<br>
    </p>
    <p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap">[1] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://docs.contao.org/manual/en/installation/contao-manager/">https://docs.contao.org/manual/en/installation/contao-manager/</a>
</span></p>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Jordi Boggiano
@seldaek - <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://seld.be">https://seld.be</a></pre>
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