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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [PHP-Dev] Versioned Packagers (Iteration IV)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 03:20:51 -0400
In-Reply-To: <CAMrTa2HqHesQezW6=zZsTvRX6Z3Y0+0+muH=HyZe3y4tTO1dTg@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: php internals <internals@lists.php.net>
To: Jordan LeDoux <jordan.ledoux@gmail.com>
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From: mike@newclarity.net (Mike Schinkel)


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> On Jul 10, 2024, at 2:56 AM, Jordan LeDoux <jordan.ledoux@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 11:42=E2=80=AFPM Mike Schinkel =
<mike@newclarity.net <mailto:mike@newclarity.net>> wrote:
> [snip]
> My one useful takeaway from your email =E2=80=94 except that I already =
knew that =E2=80=94 was the need to figure out how PHP can handle =
multiple symbol tables.  Beyond that, your take your own advice and =
spare us (me) from your contempt and condescension as they are not good =
looks on anyone.
>=20
> While Larry was very blunt (and I don't really fault him for that =
either), that should not be your only takeaway. The short version was =
that he was telling you, and the other people in this thread, to stop =
pontificating and to do something that resembles developing/researching =
a solution.

Why support a claim that assumes I have not been developing/researching =
a solution when you have absolutely no knowledge of what I have been =
doing? (I have in-fact been researching and developing a PoC. Full time =
for the past week, actually.)

> A lot of the people who actually have experience working on the engine =
are literally ignoring this conversation right now (and may come back to =
it next month) because it's just too much noise and nonsense right when =
we're near feature freeze.
>=20
> Your focus and intent to drive this discussion towards trying to =
duplicate composer reduces its usefulness. I get that you do not like =
PSR-4/composer/whatever. I honestly cannot wade through the 15,000-ish =
words you've sent in these threads to nail down the specifics. But I =
know for a fact that an attempt to redesign composer is:

You claim "my focus and intent" is to "duplicate composer" and yet you =
claim you "honestly cannot wade through the 15,000-ish words?" =20

If you haven't read my email, then how exactly do you know what my focus =
and intent has been?

In fact, my focus and intent has *not* been to duplicate composer. FULL =
STOP.

But since I already fully explained my focus and intent then =E2=80=94 =
other than the fact you didn't read it =E2=80=94 it would do a =
disservice to everyone to repeat it.

> 1. Orthogonal to PHP modules (they have nothing to do with each other =
from a design perspective).
> 2. Doomed to failure.=20
>=20
> Your one useful takeaway, that Larry gave you specific steps for, is =
to focus on the feature the original proposer of the thread was trying =
for, instead of continuing to derail it into composer-related nonsense.

If you wanted to quiet a thread that obviously annoys you for some =
reason it would seem the last thing you to do is immediately knee-jerk a =
reply with three (3) different straw man accusations =E2=80=94 each of =
which can easily be disproven by reading my email to which you replied =
=E2=80=94 when just ignoring the email was your option.

-Mike=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Jul 10, 2024, at 2:56 AM, Jordan LeDoux &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jordan.ledoux@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">jordan.ledoux@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul =
9, 2024 at 11:42=E2=80=AFPM Mike Schinkel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mike@newclarity.net" class=3D"">mike@newclarity.net</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">[snip]<br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
My one useful takeaway from your email =E2=80=94 except that I already =
knew that =E2=80=94 was the need to figure out how PHP can handle =
multiple symbol tables.&nbsp; Beyond that, your take your own advice and =
spare us (me) from your contempt and condescension as they are not good =
looks on anyone.<br class=3D""></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">While Larry was very blunt (and I don't =
really fault him for that either), that should not be your only =
takeaway. The short version was that he was telling you, and the other =
people in this thread, to stop pontificating and to do something that =
resembles developing/researching a solution. =
</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Why =
support a claim that assumes I have not been developing/researching a =
solution when you have absolutely no knowledge of what I have been =
doing? (I have in-fact been researching and developing a PoC. Full time =
for the past week, actually.)</div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">A lot of the people who actually =
have experience working on the engine are literally ignoring this =
conversation right now (and may come back to it next month) because it's =
just too much noise and nonsense right when we're near feature =
freeze.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Your =
focus and intent to drive this discussion towards trying to duplicate =
composer reduces its usefulness. I get that you do not like =
PSR-4/composer/whatever. I honestly cannot wade through the 15,000-ish =
words you've sent in these threads to nail down the specifics. But I =
know for a fact that an attempt to redesign composer =
is:</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>You=
 claim "my focus and intent" is to "duplicate composer" and yet you =
claim you "honestly cannot wade through the 15,000-ish words?" =
&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>If you haven't read my email, =
then how exactly do you know what my focus and intent has =
been?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>In fact, my focus and intent =
has *not* been to duplicate composer. FULL STOP.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>But since I already fully explained my focus and =
intent then =E2=80=94 other than the fact you didn't read it =E2=80=94 =
it would do a disservice to everyone to repeat it.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">1. =
Orthogonal to PHP modules (they have nothing to do with each other from =
a design perspective).</div><div class=3D"">2. Doomed to failure. <br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Your=
 one useful takeaway, that Larry gave you specific steps for, is to =
focus on the feature the original proposer of the thread was trying for, =
instead of continuing to derail it into composer-related =
nonsense.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div>If you wanted to quiet a thread that obviously annoys =
you for some reason it would seem the last thing you to do is =
immediately knee-jerk a reply with three (3) different straw man =
accusations =E2=80=94 each of which can easily be disproven by reading =
my email to which you replied =E2=80=94 when just ignoring the email was =
your option.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div>-Mike</div></body></html>=

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