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References: <09559430-4477-4516-8D78-6F4071E1AA6C@newclarity.net>
 <0182F3D6-F464-477F-9029-A2D0A8B50C71@koalephant.com> <86A83E30-00CE-434F-B316-EB9A55F92BDD@newclarity.net>
In-Reply-To: <86A83E30-00CE-434F-B316-EB9A55F92BDD@newclarity.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 20:24:51 -0400
Message-ID: <CAEUnE0fQgxG0sEaThwkaF23GeSKF-dUULrXakF+SB+khTRKO6A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Iteration III: Packages (was Re: [PHP-DEV] [Initial
 Feedback] PHP User Modules - An Adaptation of ES6 from JavaScript)
To: PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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From: tendoaki@gmail.com (Michael Morris)

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On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 7:52=E2=80=AFPM Mike Schinkel <mike@newclarity.net> =
wrote:

> Me personally, the opinions that I do not like are the one-symbol-per fil=
e
> assumption, which is also a key issue I have with PSR-4.
>

That's a PSR-4 issue, not an autoloader one. Autoloaders, even in composer,
can use class maps to discover which file must be loaded to make the symbol
accessible, even if multiple unused symbols in that file come along for the
ride.


> Understanding that the thread has been a brainstorming thread more than a
> proposal thread =E2=80=94 ignoring whether or not it is effective to brai=
nstorm on
> this list because of interpersonal list dynamics =E2=80=94 my two cents i=
n answer
> to the question of *"What problem(s) are we trying to solve?"*
>

Brainstorming in a large group is difficult, but not impossible. The last
time I tried something like this I did succeed - it was the introduction of
runtime assertion to Drupal back in version 8.  It took 6 MONTHS of work
and debate to get that one accepted, but it has paid off well.  If this
goes on for a year I wouldn't be surprised.  I'm fully prepared for the
blind alleys and wrong turns ahead.


>
> 1. *Side-by-side symbol loading* =E2=80=94 PHP currently makes it difficu=
lt if
> not impossible to use different versions of the same library as
> dependencies of higher-level dependencies.
>
> 2. *Symbol encapsulation* =E2=80=94 Allowing symbols to be hidden from co=
de that
> should not use them.
>

Uhm, I'm not formally trained so that one got by me - could you please give
an example of this? I might have posted one already without realizing it.


>
> 3. *Multiple symbols per file* =E2=80=94 Finding an approach that would b=
e able
> to gain wide adoption for multiple symbols per file=E2=80=94 without effe=
ctively
> requiring an app to load all source on each page load =E2=80=94 *to bette=
r
> support locality of behavior.*
>
> See: https://htmx.org/essays/locality-of-behaviour/
>

> 4. *Unified loading* =E2=80=94 Currently constants, variables, functions,=
 are the
> have-nots of the autoloading realm. Providing a manner for loading them,
> and a unified manner across all symbols would be even better.
>
> 5. *Community buy-in* =E2=80=94 While not a goal in and of itself, ideall=
y there
> would be a solution that would gain broad support over time so the approa=
ch
> does not get dismissed by the majority of developers simply for reasons
> such as it is not what they are already familiar with. Having official PH=
P
> endorsement would go a long way to address this.
>

This last one is essential because something as core to the language must
be popular.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 7:52=E2=80=AFP=
M Mike Schinkel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mike@newclarity.net">mike@newclarity.=
net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div>Me personally, the opini=
ons that I do not like are the one-symbol-per file assumption, which is als=
o a key issue I have with PSR-4.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>That&#39;s a PSR-4 issue, not an autoloader one. Autoloaders,=
 even in composer, can use class maps to discover which file must be loaded=
 to make the symbol accessible, even if multiple unused symbols in that fil=
e come along for the ride.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div=
>Understanding that the thread has been a brainstorming thread more than a =
proposal thread =E2=80=94 ignoring whether or not it is effective to brains=
torm on this list because of interpersonal list dynamics =E2=80=94 my two c=
ents in answer to the question of=C2=A0<i>&quot;What problem(s) are we tryi=
ng to solve?&quot;</i></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Br=
ainstorming in a large group is difficult, but not impossible. The last tim=
e I tried something like this I did succeed - it was the introduction of ru=
ntime assertion to Drupal back in version 8.=C2=A0 It took 6 MONTHS of work=
 and debate to get that one accepted, but it has paid off well.=C2=A0 If th=
is goes on for a year I wouldn&#39;t be surprised.=C2=A0 I&#39;m fully prep=
ared for the blind alleys and wrong turns ahead.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;"><div><div><br></div><div>1.=C2=A0<b>Side-by-side symbol loadin=
g</b>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 PHP currently makes it difficult if not impossible to =
use different versions of the same library as dependencies of higher-level =
dependencies.</div><div><br></div><div>2.=C2=A0<b>Symbol encapsulation</b>=
=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Allowing symbols to be hidden from code that should not use=
 them.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Uhm, I&#39;m not f=
ormally trained so that one got by me - could you please give an example of=
 this? I might have posted one already without realizing it.</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"ov=
erflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div><br></div><div>3.=C2=A0<b>Multiple symb=
ols per file</b>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Finding an approach that would be able to g=
ain wide adoption for multiple symbols per file=E2=80=94 without effectivel=
y requiring an app to load all source on each page load =E2=80=94 <b>to bet=
ter support locality of behavior.</b></div><div><br></div><div><span style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>See:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://htmx.org/ess=
ays/locality-of-behaviour/" target=3D"_blank">https://htmx.org/essays/local=
ity-of-behaviour/</a>=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">=
<div><br></div><div>4.=C2=A0<b>Unified loading</b>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Currently=
 constants, variables, functions, are the have-nots of the autoloading real=
m. Providing a manner for loading them, and a unified manner across all sym=
bols would be even better.</div><div><br></div><div>5.=C2=A0<b>Community bu=
y-in</b>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 While not a goal in and of itself, ideally there wo=
uld be a solution that would gain broad support over time so the approach d=
oes not get dismissed by the majority of developers simply for reasons such=
 as it is not what they are already familiar with. Having official PHP endo=
rsement would go a long way to address this.</div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>This last one is essential because something as core to the l=
anguage must be popular.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div>

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