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[98.252.216.111]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-64a9c406839sm15436427b3.133.2024.07.01.15.34.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Jul 2024 15:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53D812F5-347D-49EE-B21A-B19DE2AB0F35@newclarity.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_49A196E5-B38C-44DF-8E1F-427FA68728D0" Precedence: bulk list-help: list-post: List-Id: internals.lists.php.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.8\)) Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Iteration III: Packages (was Re: [PHP-DEV] [Initial Feedback] PHP User Modules - An Adaptation of ES6 from JavaScript) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2024 18:34:01 -0400 In-Reply-To: <0d5825cf-fa3a-40fe-b548-933221267a37@app.fastmail.com> Cc: internals@lists.php.net To: Rob Landers References: <1917CF7C-26D8-4DBE-B05C-5AA650AC6C9F@rwec.co.uk> <551cd5b0-1c00-4818-a9ca-97f6b7e8c3dc@app.fastmail.com> <39B496F8-062E-4848-9B3B-529BE8D3415A@newclarity.net> <856F4F70-DC81-4098-82DD-5F6D47CDF3F0@newclarity.net> <09559430-4477-4516-8D78-6F4071E1AA6C@newclarity.net> <0d5825cf-fa3a-40fe-b548-933221267a37@app.fastmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.8) From: mike@newclarity.net (Mike Schinkel) --Apple-Mail=_49A196E5-B38C-44DF-8E1F-427FA68728D0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Jul 1, 2024, at 5:07 PM, Rob Landers wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024, at 18:22, Mike Schinkel wrote: >> > On Jul 1, 2024, at 7:57 AM, Arvids Godjuks = > wrote: >> >=20 >> > TL;DR: As a userland developer, in my opinion, this is just a = downgrade from what we have now. Enhance namespaces to have the ability = to have internal/private classes, interfaces, enums and constants. = That's about it. >>=20 >> Please note my comments that follow do not mean I am in support of = this package proposal as presented.=20 >>=20 >> > Autoloading is one of the best killer features of PHP - love it or = hate it - it's your personal preference. >>=20 >> Two really solid reasons to hate autoloading as implemented in PHP: >>=20 >> 1. Autoloading runs userland code. This means it has the potential = conflict between different packages with different autoloaders, it means = there can be buggy autoloaders, and it means that when using XDEBUG = every time a new symbol is found when the developer is single-step = debugging the developer will be dropped into the autoloader and then = best case they then immediately trace out. All of these aspects a major = PITA and time waster and make debugging more exhausting than it needs to = be. >=20 > FWIW, (in Intellij at least), you can set it to skip those files. I just went and looked again, and after having requested the feature in = PhpStorm over a decade ago, it appears they finally have added it. I had = given up that they ever would, and must have missed it when they added = it. Thanks for prodding me to look for it. Of course that doesn't help if the source of the bug is in the userland = autoloader code, but is an improvement much of the time otherwise. -Mike= --Apple-Mail=_49A196E5-B38C-44DF-8E1F-427FA68728D0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
On = Jul 1, 2024, at 5:07 PM, Rob Landers <rob@bottled.codes> = wrote:

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024, at 18:22, Mike = Schinkel wrote:
> On Jul 1, 2024, = at 7:57 AM, Arvids Godjuks <arvids.godjuks@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> TL;DR: As a userland developer, in my opinion, this is = just a downgrade from what we have now. Enhance namespaces to have the = ability to have internal/private classes, interfaces, enums and = constants. That's about it.

Please note my comments that follow do = not mean I am in support of this package proposal as presented. 

>= Autoloading is one of the best killer features of PHP - love it or hate = it - it's your personal preference.

Two really solid reasons = to hate autoloading as implemented in PHP:

1. Autoloading runs = userland code. This means it has the potential conflict between = different packages with different autoloaders, it means there can be = buggy autoloaders, and it means that when using XDEBUG every time a new = symbol is found when the developer is single-step debugging the = developer will be dropped into the autoloader and then best case they = then immediately trace out. All of these aspects a major PITA and time = waster and make debugging more exhausting than it needs to be.

FWIW, = (in Intellij at least), you can set it to skip those files.

I just = went and looked again, and after having requested the feature in = PhpStorm over a decade ago, it appears they finally have added it. I had = given up that they ever would, and must have missed it when they added = it. Thanks for prodding me to look for it.

Of course that doesn't help if the source of the = bug is in the userland autoloader code, but is an improvement much of = the time otherwise.

-Mike
= --Apple-Mail=_49A196E5-B38C-44DF-8E1F-427FA68728D0--