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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Iteration III: Packages (was Re: [PHP-DEV] [Initial
 Feedback] PHP User Modules - An Adaptation of ES6 from JavaScript)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2024 17:57:50 -0400
In-Reply-To: <CAMrTa2F_76OkQfgdRxL1yh3wkey90UBsts9HcEGXrwDPwVcVoA@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
To: Jordan LeDoux <jordan.ledoux@gmail.com>
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From: mike@newclarity.net (Mike Schinkel)


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> On Jul 1, 2024, at 4:54 PM, Jordan LeDoux <jordan.ledoux@gmail.com> =
wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 11:09=E2=80=AFAM Mike Schinkel =
<mike@newclarity.net <mailto:mike@newclarity.net>> wrote:
>=20
> > and I'm fairly certain after keeping up with the thread that it is =
almost universally not what people want. Most people just want the =
toolbox be "finished" so to speak, not get a completely new one in =
addition that has no compatibility with the old one.
>=20
> I get it. I am no longer proposing an alternative to the autoloader. =
PHP developers are comfortable with autoloading and that is that.
>=20
> But that does not mean that I cannot tell you and others the emperor =
has no clothes in hopes that people eventually see that there can be =
better alternatives.
>=20
> -Mike
>=20
> I'm not sure that constantly reiterating a point that everyone already =
knows but simply disagrees with is productive for the list, considering =
that the objection boils down to "but I don't like it" instead of "here =
are the concrete technical drawbacks". All of the objections you had =
seemed to be from the perspective "but what if the developer is only =
allowed 100 files on disk and only uses notepad to edit the code?" I =
don't think those are technical drawbacks personally, I think those are =
developers that need to at least start programming like they are living =
in 2005.

Given the paragraph I wrote that started with "I get it..." I was =
planning on not making comment on topic.

>  All of the objections you had seemed to be from the perspective "but =
what if the developer is only allowed 100 files on disk and only uses =
notepad to edit the code?" I don't think those are technical drawbacks =
personally, I think those are developers that need to at least start =
programming like they are living in 2005.

However, since you GROSSLY mischaracterized my argument, I am going to =
call you out on that bit of attempted demonization of my argument on =
your part. =20

But I won't repeat the argument because, why bother?

-Mike=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Jul 1, 2024, at 4:54 PM, Jordan LeDoux &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jordan.ledoux@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">jordan.ledoux@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, =
Jul 1, 2024 at 11:09=E2=80=AFAM Mike Schinkel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mike@newclarity.net" class=3D"">mike@newclarity.net</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; =
border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding-left: 1ex;"><br class=3D"">&gt; and I'm fairly certain after =
keeping up with the thread that it is almost universally not what people =
want. Most people just want the toolbox be "finished" so to speak, not =
get a completely new one in addition that has no compatibility with the =
old one.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I get it. I am no longer proposing =
an alternative to the autoloader. PHP developers are comfortable with =
autoloading and that is that.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">But that does =
not mean that I cannot tell you and others the emperor has no clothes in =
hopes that people eventually see that there can be better =
alternatives.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-Mike</blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'm not sure that =
constantly reiterating a point that everyone already knows but simply =
disagrees with is productive for the list, considering that the =
objection boils down to "but I don't like it" instead of "here are the =
concrete technical drawbacks". All of the objections you had seemed to =
be from the perspective "but what if the developer is only allowed 100 =
files on disk and only uses notepad to edit the code?" I don't think =
those are technical drawbacks personally, I think those are developers =
that need to at least start programming like they are living in 2005.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Given the paragraph I wrote that started with "I =
get it..." I was planning on not making comment on topic.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;All of the objections you =
had seemed to be from the perspective "but what if the developer is only =
allowed 100 files on disk and only uses notepad to edit the code?" I =
don't think those are technical drawbacks personally, I think those are =
developers that need to at least start programming like they are living =
in 2005.</div></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div>However, =
since you GROSSLY mischaracterized my argument, I am going to call you =
out on that bit of attempted demonization of my argument on your part. =
&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>But I won't repeat the =
argument because, why bother?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div>-Mike</body></html>=

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