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Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2024 14:57:06 +0300
Message-ID: <CAL0xaBFWUkeMk=ofOF4q+keVN6X3nx67NjZ1-2zWfgGez1oy4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Iteration III: Packages (was Re: [PHP-DEV] [Initial
 Feedback] PHP User Modules - An Adaptation of ES6 from JavaScript)
To: Michael Morris <tendoaki@gmail.com>
Cc: PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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From: arvids.godjuks@gmail.com (Arvids Godjuks)

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On Sun, 30 Jun 2024 at 23:30, Michael Morris <tendoaki@gmail.com> wrote:

> So let's take another crack at this based on all the points raised in the
> thread. This should also underline why I don't consider this an RFC - I a=
m
> iterating until we arrive at something that may be refinable into an RFC.
> And I say we because without the aid of those in this conversation I woul=
d
> not have arrived at what will follow.
>
> *snip*
>
>
TL;DR: As a userland developer, in my opinion, this is just a downgrade
from what we have now. Enhance namespaces to have the ability to have
internal/private classes, interfaces, enums and constants. That's about it.

Autoloading is one of the best killer features of PHP - love it or hate it
- it's your personal preference. I've seen a sizeable chunk of developers
that come from other languages discover PHP's autoloading and their minds
just get blown. Performance has not been an issue for a long time due to
opcache and all the optimizations that have been done to it and ability to
preload bytecode. Then there are things like  FrankenPHP, Swoole, ReactPHP
and others that entirely sidestep that issue. And then there's the active
development of JIT engine - just let the people working on the
implementation time to cook.
It works, worked for a long time and there are not so many things wrong
with it to entirely upend the whole ecosystem and split the language.
Here's your HARD REMINDER about Python 2 =3D> Python 3 and how that went an=
d
is still somewhat ongoing. Sometimes copying things from other places is
just wrong and does not fit the ethos of the language you want to change.
PHP always was and still is "doing it's thing". Practicality is on the high
list of priorities here and that is why many of us have chosen the language
and stuck with it 2 decades in.

The only thing I want to be added to namespaces is the ability to define
internal classes, interfaces, enums and constants so that when you write
application code, the internals of packages and your own code's "private"
details do not leak to the business level layer via autocomplete
suggestions and in general reducing the cognitive load of that aspect. And
there are obvious advantages of locking down the internals of a library so
people do not abuse it and then complain when things get broken.

And i don't even want to comment how you want to bring composer
functionality into PHP code and make it a weird combo of PHP, composer,
docker-compose.yml - insert the "WHY?!" meme here.
What I love about PHP ecosystem is for the most part, every tool has its
main job and it does that job exceedingly well. PHP core is developing the
engine and doing a great job. Composer is doing its job and it is the best
package management tool out there. And so on - we have one of the best
quality ecosystems around because things are not jammed into each other and
trying to create a "supertool". There is something to be said about
Internals refusing to if not endorse, at least acknowledge the popular
tooling and lean on it more (like rector for upgrades and so on), but that
is a completely different discussion. The PECL is being worked on to be
replaced, so we can't even raise that point any more - PHP Foundation is
taking care of it.

---
Arv=C4=ABds Godjuks
+371 26 851 664
arvids.godjuks@gmail.com
Telegram: @psihius https://t.me/psihius

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, 30 Jun 2024 at 23:30, Michael=
 Morris &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tendoaki@gmail.com">tendoaki@gmail.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">So let&#39;s take another crack at this based on all the points r=
aised in the thread. This should also underline why I don&#39;t consider th=
is an RFC - I am iterating until we arrive at something that may be refinab=
le into an RFC. And I say we because without the aid of those in this conve=
rsation I would not have arrived at what will follow.<div><br></div><div>*s=
nip*</div><div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div>TL;DR: As a userland developer, i=
n my opinion, this is just a downgrade from what we have now. Enhance=C2=A0=
namespaces to have the ability to have internal/private classes, interfaces=
, enums and constants. That&#39;s about it.</div><div><br></div><div>Autolo=
ading is one of the best killer features of PHP - love it or hate it - it&#=
39;s your personal preference. I&#39;ve seen a sizeable chunk of developers=
 that come from other languages discover PHP&#39;s autoloading and their mi=
nds just get blown. Performance has not been an issue for a long time due t=
o opcache and all the optimizations that have been done to it and ability t=
o preload bytecode. Then there are things like=C2=A0 FrankenPHP, Swoole, Re=
actPHP and others that entirely sidestep that issue. And then there&#39;s t=
he active development of JIT engine - just let the people working on the im=
plementation time to cook.<br></div><div>It works, worked for a long time a=
nd there are not so many things wrong with it to entirely upend the whole e=
cosystem and split the language. Here&#39;s your HARD REMINDER about Python=
 2 =3D&gt; Python 3 and how that went and is still somewhat ongoing. Someti=
mes copying things from other places is just wrong and does not fit the eth=
os of the language you want to change. PHP always was and still is &quot;do=
ing it&#39;s thing&quot;. Practicality is on the high list of priorities he=
re and that is why many of us have chosen the language and stuck with it 2 =
decades in.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The only thing I want to be adde=
d to namespaces is the ability to define internal classes, interfaces, enum=
s and constants so that when you write application code, the internals of p=
ackages and your own code&#39;s &quot;private&quot; details do not leak to =
the business level layer via autocomplete suggestions and in general reduci=
ng the cognitive load of that aspect. And there are obvious advantages of l=
ocking down the internals of a library so people do not abuse it and then c=
omplain when things get broken.</div><div><br></div><div>And i don&#39;t ev=
en want to comment how you want to bring composer functionality into PHP co=
de and make it a weird combo of PHP, composer, docker-compose.yml - insert =
the &quot;WHY?!&quot; meme here.</div><div>What I love about PHP ecosystem =
is for the most part, every tool has its main job and it does that job exce=
edingly well. PHP core is developing the engine and doing a great job. Comp=
oser is doing its job and it is the best package management tool out there.=
 And so on - we have one of the best quality ecosystems around because thin=
gs are not jammed into each other and trying to create a &quot;supertool&qu=
ot;. There is something to be said about Internals refusing to if not endor=
se, at least acknowledge the popular tooling and lean on it more (like rect=
or for upgrades and so on), but that is a completely different discussion. =
The PECL is being worked on to be replaced, so we can&#39;t even raise that=
 point any more - PHP Foundation is taking care of it.</div><span class=3D"=
gmail_signature_prefix"><div><span class=3D"gmail_signature_prefix"><br></s=
pan></div>---</span><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"=
ltr">Arv=C4=ABds Godjuks<div>+371 26 851 664</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:ar=
vids.godjuks@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">arvids.godjuks@gmail.com</a></div=
><div>Telegram: @psihius=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://t.me/psihius" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://t.me/psihius</a></div></div></div></div>

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