Newsgroups: php.internals
Path: news.php.net
Xref: news.php.net php.internals:124120
Feedback-ID: i8414410d:Fastmail
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.11.0-alpha0-538-g1508afaa2-fm-20240616.001-g1508afaa
Precedence: bulk
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <4996ae09-e5eb-4a8b-90e2-7461805c4cb7@app.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: 
 <CABdc3Wqzt+S2xL-=dVH1Ae0oQLR5jAMaBEex5NemKPb9rBx9MQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be7bc3e2-ce2b-422f-9f3a-743829f1e1be@scriptfusion.com>
 <A8ECC81C-99C7-47FB-B0C0-C2166F1AA43E@miles.systems>
 <CAAGC1Ov8LniFwvB+Bs93hEv1wSXZ9xJ3SJDpYYzzTcEW2Yt-TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAKU0u=w12chvWGsbCyuiXp14RcQ0boDd7i7MmeooWCOd9Cn+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ECBB519-B129-426F-93AE-33738A1ABA06@miles.systems>
 <CABdc3Wqzt+S2xL-=dVH1Ae0oQLR5jAMaBEex5NemKPb9rBx9MQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2024 19:59:53 -0500
To: "php internals" <internals@lists.php.net>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [Initial Feedback] Typed Arrays
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: larry@garfieldtech.com ("Larry Garfield")

On Sun, Jun 30, 2024, at 11:13 AM, Micha=C5=82 Marcin Brzuchalski wrote:
> Hi Richard,
>
> czw., 27 cze 2024, 22:33 u=C5=BCytkownik Richard Miles=20
> <richard@miles.systems> napisa=C5=82:
>>=20
>> > I worked with Joe Watkins to do a proof-of-concept for generic trai=
ts.
>> > It's a bit old since it's from 2017, but could be a useful starting
>> > point if you are serious about pursuing this idea:
>> >=20
>> > https://github.com/php/php-src/compare/master...morrisonlevi:php-sr=
c:parameterized_traits
>>=20
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m also interested in this; it will help see branches like t=
hese.
>> Did you ever get the POC working? What did you feel like was the bigg=
est hurdle?
>
> There even was an RFC in voting which Joe implemented and it addresses=20
> nearly what is discussed it this thread https://wiki.php.net/rfc/array=
of
>
> I must admit that the collection<Dict> proposal is bit too complex to=20
> address such tiny but powerfully in my opinion functionality which is=20
> typed array. What Derick showed looks more like generic collection and=20
> such require declaring it's type. In my opinion this is way too mush=20
> hassle to declare as many collection types as many usages in=20
> application. Also two collection types with the same collection item=20
> type will not be compatible from type perspective. While typed array=20
> seems much more clear and compatible in all places where typed array i=
s=20
> needed without declaring separate type for each usage.
>
> If I were to choose between typed-array and collection like Derick=20
> showed a little bit I'd choose typed arrays definitely as a first=20
> feature to be merged into PHP.
>
> Cheers,
> Micha=C5=82 Marcin Brzuchalski

Contextual point: Nearly every other major language at this point that h=
as a meaningful standard library has gone with a three-separate-object a=
pproach (Seq, Set, Dict, called various things).  At least Python, Javas=
cript, Rust, Kotlin, and Swift, in my research.  (Go doesn't, but Go avo=
ids having features by design.)  And AFAIK *every* language except PHP a=
nd Lua separates sequences from dictionaries.  Typed arrays will not ful=
l resolve the seq vs dict problem, which is arguably PHP's original sin.=
  And there's a lot of weird issues to resolve around what the syntax co=
uld even be, since PHP has untyped variables.

The custom collection syntax Derick has been working on is a second-best=
 alternative to generics, essentially.  It is less ergonomic, no questio=
n, but can also be implemented without generics, and so is about 5x easi=
er to do.  If we could get native generics, then I think everyone involv=
ed agrees building collections off of that -- in essentially the same wa=
y as every language I mentioned above --- would be preferable to a custo=
m one-off syntax.

--Larry Garfield