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Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2024 13:14:40 +0200
To: "Saki Takamachi" <saki@sakiot.com>
Cc: "Gina P. Banyard" <internals@gpb.moe>, internals@lists.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Operator Overrides -- Lite Edition
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From: rob@bottled.codes ("Rob Landers")

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On Sun, Jun 30, 2024, at 13:05, Saki Takamachi wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
>>> I'm not sure. Does this mean that such "hack" is unavoidable?
>>>=20
>>> And I don't really understand what "pointless hack" means. This woul=
d make sense if operator overloading was already allowed, but it isn't.
>>=20
>> Not unavoidable, but pointless. For example, I attempted to create a =
String class that used + for concatenation. This kinda works, but if you=
 pass it to something that takes a string, you get the underlying number=
 and not the string you were trying to store. This is because GMP takes =
over casting forcing you to stick to numerical constructs.
>=20
> I don't understand why you only consider the casting case. You can sim=
ply convert it to a string via a method. As long as don't use any castin=
g at the end, users can implement it however they like. I don't think th=
is is a pointless hack.
>=20
> Also, allowing "hack" just because they're not useful is not a good id=
ea.

We could just delete php-src, grab a beer, and watch the sunset. I don=E2=
=80=99t think you=E2=80=99ll ever be able to stop some programmers from =
hacking things together to solve business problems though. I=E2=80=99ve =
=E2=80=9Chacked=E2=80=9D weakmaps in userland to make Hour(1) =3D=3D=3D =
(yes, there are three! Equals there) Minute(60).

>=20
> Again, if such functionality is provided, it should be exposed as form=
al support for operator overloading.

Thank you for your opinion, this RFC doesn=E2=80=99t stop that from happ=
ening and is completely orthogonal.

>=20
>>> This is very confusing me. Why does this need to be a child class of=
 GMP?
>>=20
>> This is addressed in the current RFC text, if I missed something, ple=
ase ask!
>=20
> I don't understand why the GMP RFC mentions environments where GMP is =
not used.
>=20
> There are a few other points worth mentioning, but the existence of po=
lyfills makes this especially confusing.
>=20
> > To be usable, the developer must override the desired operations and=
 make them public
>=20
> Is this referring to a polyfill? Or is this just a necessary step to o=
verride the overload?

I recommend reading up on what a polyfill is, and why they are useful, i=
f you are confused. But to answer your question, no, it has nothing to d=
o with the polyfill, it=E2=80=99s just a necessary step. The polyfill is=
 just provided for completeness.=20

>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Saki

=E2=80=94 Rob
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<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type=3D"text/css">p.Mso=
Normal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>On Sun, Jun 30, 2024, at 13:05, Saki Takamachi wrote:<br>=
</div><blockquote type=3D"cite" id=3D"qt" style=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<br></div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite" id=3D"qt-qt" style=3D""><div>I'm not sure. Does =
this mean that such "hack" is unavoidable?<br></div><div><br></div><div>=
And I don't really understand what "pointless hack" means. This would ma=
ke sense if operator overloading was already allowed, but it isn't.<br><=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Not unavoidable, but pointless. Fo=
r example, I attempted to create a String class that used + for concaten=
ation. This kinda works, but if you pass it to something that takes a st=
ring, you get the underlying number and not the string you were trying t=
o store. This is because GMP takes over casting forcing you to stick to =
numerical constructs.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I =
don't understand why you only consider the casting case. You can simply =
convert it to a string via a method. As long as don't use any casting at=
 the end, users can implement it however they like. I don't think this i=
s a pointless hack.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Also, allowing "hack" j=
ust because they're not useful is not a good idea.<br></div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>We could just delete php-src, grab a be=
er, and watch the sunset. I don=E2=80=99t think you=E2=80=99ll ever be a=
ble to stop some programmers from hacking things together to solve busin=
ess problems though. I=E2=80=99ve =E2=80=9Chacked=E2=80=9D weakmaps in u=
serland to make Hour(1) =3D=3D=3D (yes, there are three! Equals there) M=
inute(60).<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" id=3D"qt" s=
tyle=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Again, i=
f such functionality is provided, it should be exposed as formal support=
 for operator overloading.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>Thank you for your opinion, this RFC doesn=E2=80=99t stop that =
from happening and is completely orthogonal.</div><div><br></div><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite" id=3D"qt" style=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" id=3D"qt-qt" style=3D""><div>This is very confusing me. Wh=
y does this need to be a child class of GMP?<br></div></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div>This is addressed in the current RFC text, if I missed so=
mething, please ask!<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I d=
on't understand why the GMP RFC mentions environments where GMP is not u=
sed.<br></div><div><br></div><div>There are a few other points worth men=
tioning, but the existence of polyfills makes this especially confusing.=
<br></div><div><br></div><div>&gt;&nbsp;<span style=3D"color:rgb(51, 51,=
 51);-webkit-text-size-adjust:auto;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);"=
><span class=3D"font" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Fira Sans&quot;, &quot;=
Source Sans Pro&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"siz=
e" style=3D"font-size:16px;">To be usable, the developer must override t=
he desired operations and make them public</span></span></span><br></div=
><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51, 51, 51);-webkit-text-size-adjust:auto=
;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"font" style=3D"fon=
t-family:&quot;Fira Sans&quot;, &quot;Source Sans Pro&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"size" style=3D"font-size:16px;"></spa=
n></span></span><br></div><div>Is this referring to a polyfill? Or is th=
is just a necessary step to override the overload?<br></div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I recommend reading up on what a polyfi=
ll is, and why they are useful, if you are confused. But to answer your =
question, no, it has nothing to do with the polyfill, it=E2=80=99s just =
a necessary step. The polyfill is just provided for completeness.&nbsp;<=
/div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" id=3D"qt" style=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Regards,<br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>Saki<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v id=3D"sig121229152">=E2=80=94 Rob<br></div></body></html>
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