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[98.252.216.111]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-64a9a8037edsm6430027b3.62.2024.06.29.04.43.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 29 Jun 2024 04:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5B0CE06B-DB82-442E-A4A0-BF1B49F42246@newclarity.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B1A46046-A7C2-4E25-BD17-EB9F6849B6AD" Precedence: bulk list-help: list-post: List-Id: internals.lists.php.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.8\)) Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [Initial Feedback] PHP User Modules - An Adaptation of ES6 from JavaScript Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2024 07:43:06 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: internals@lists.php.net To: Rob Landers References: <0acedb8e-34be-4348-907b-4075cf7641fd@app.fastmail.com> <9c20b078-f82a-47fe-af23-2f3cdd233079@app.fastmail.com> <50529C6A-42BB-4D49-B720-FE1847577484@rwec.co.uk> <97EA49E2-43A9-42D2-B493-A6B66CC54914@edison.tech> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.8) From: mike@newclarity.net (Mike Schinkel) --Apple-Mail=_B1A46046-A7C2-4E25-BD17-EB9F6849B6AD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Jun 29, 2024, at 7:14 AM, Rob Landers wrote: >> You say it is impractical, you claim millions of users, but you don't = address why the specific features are impractical. >>=20 >> They are no more impractical than any other new language features PHP = has added in recent years (and I am not being critical of what has been = added, to be clear.) >=20 > So far, nobody has shown how it is practical -- that is on the person = proposing the RFC. Ideally, this would be it, you show why it is useful, = how to use it, etc. But it is also political. You need to show why = people would use it, why people would rewrite their entire application = to use it (if the RFC calls for it), and so far, nobody has shown that = other than "there are packages!" The problem with your assertion is that "impractical" is not a criticism = that can be objectively determined to be true or false. It is just a = pejorative used to stifle discussion which is why I responded to it as a = did. Yes I agree that it is no proposers to show people why to use it, but it = is unfair to proposers to give criticism that can only be classified as = opinion. > You need to show why people would use it, why people would rewrite = their entire application to use it (if the RFC calls for it), and so = far, nobody has shown that other than "there are packages!" It seems you have not read any of the several other emails I have = written to this list in the past several days that do far more than say = "there are packages!" Please read them in full before making such further equivalently = dismissive claims. > I cringed at this. There is no direct lineage though they borrow come = syntax from C, and if you want to push it, you might as well say they're = descendants of B which borrowed syntax from BCPL which borrowed syntax = from CPL which borrowed it's syntax from ALGOL... eh, no, these = languages are not related to each other. Inspired, maybe. Aside from your cringing, how does your pedanticism here move the = discussion forward in a positive manner? > No, PHP and Go are nothing like each other. With a bit of finangling, = you can actually port JavaScript line-for-line to PHP, but not the other = way around. If anything, JavaScript is more like PHP than PHP is more = like JavaScript. Again, you are making a statement that cannot be objectively proven true = or false, and frankly I cannot see any way in which your argument here = matters to discussion of modules. > I don't see any gate-keeping here, Those who are inside the gates never do. I called out gatekeeping because he argued the genetic fallacy[1] for = dismissing the proposed ideas rather than using objective criticism of = the features proposed. > just people challenging assumptions and pushing for the feature to be = better than it is currently being proposed. Yet the challenges are premised on opinions and fallacies instead of = objectively challenging the proposed features. =20 I am happy to defend against proposal against arguments that can be = objectively evaluated, but having my arguments challenged "because they = come from a language I don't know" means that my assumptions are not = actually being challenged and the criticisms made are based on the = challenger's pre-existing lack of comfort with the assumptions while = making it appear readers the criticism is objective. And that IMO is no way to improve a language. -Mike [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy= --Apple-Mail=_B1A46046-A7C2-4E25-BD17-EB9F6849B6AD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
On = Jun 29, 2024, at 7:14 AM, Rob Landers <rob@bottled.codes> = wrote:
You say it is impractical, = you claim millions of users, but you don't address why the specific = features are impractical.

They are no more impractical than any = other new language features PHP has added in recent years (and I am not = being critical of what has been added, to be clear.)

So = far, nobody has shown how it is practical -- that is on the person = proposing the RFC. Ideally, this would be it, you show why it is useful, = how to use it, etc. But it is also political. You need to show why = people would use it, why people would rewrite their entire application = to use it (if the RFC calls for it), and so far, nobody has shown that = other than "there are packages!"

The problem with your = assertion is that "impractical" is not a criticism that can be = objectively determined to be true or false. It is just a pejorative used = to stifle discussion which is why I responded to it as a = did.

Yes I agree that it is no = proposers to show people why to use it, but it is unfair to proposers to = give criticism that can only be classified as = opinion.

You need to show why people would use it, why people would = rewrite their entire application to use it (if the RFC calls for it), = and so far, nobody has shown that other than "there are = packages!"

It seems you have not read any of the several other = emails I have written to this list in the past several days that do far = more than say "there are packages!"

Please read them in full before making such = further equivalently dismissive claims.

I = cringed at this. There is no direct lineage though they borrow come = syntax from C, and if you want to push it, you might as well say they're = descendants of B which borrowed syntax from BCPL which borrowed syntax = from CPL which borrowed it's syntax from ALGOL... eh, no, these = languages are not related to each other. Inspired, = maybe.

Aside from your cringing, how does your pedanticism = here move the discussion forward in a positive = manner?

No, PHP and Go are nothing like each = other. With a bit of finangling, you can actually port JavaScript = line-for-line to PHP, but not the other way around. If anything, = JavaScript is more like PHP than PHP is more like = JavaScript.

Again, you are making a = statement that cannot be objectively proven true or false, and frankly I = cannot see any way in which your argument here matters to discussion of = modules.

I don't see any gate-keeping here,

Those= who are inside the gates never do.

I called out gatekeeping because he = argued the genetic fallacy[1] for dismissing the proposed ideas rather = than using objective criticism of the features = proposed.

just people challenging assumptions = and pushing for the feature to be better than it is currently being = proposed.

Yet the challenges are premised on opinions and = fallacies instead of objectively challenging the proposed features. =  

I am happy to defend against = proposal against arguments that can be objectively evaluated, but having = my arguments challenged "because they come from a language = I don't know" means that my assumptions are not actually being = challenged and the criticisms made are based on the challenger's = pre-existing lack of comfort with the assumptions while making it appear = readers the criticism is objective.

And that IMO is no way to improve a = language.

-Mike
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
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