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Sat, 29 Jun 2024 07:15:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.11.0-alpha0-538-g1508afaa2-fm-20240616.001-g1508afaa Precedence: bulk list-help: list-post: List-Id: internals.lists.php.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <97EA49E2-43A9-42D2-B493-A6B66CC54914@edison.tech> References: <0acedb8e-34be-4348-907b-4075cf7641fd@app.fastmail.com> <9c20b078-f82a-47fe-af23-2f3cdd233079@app.fastmail.com> <50529C6A-42BB-4D49-B720-FE1847577484@rwec.co.uk> <97EA49E2-43A9-42D2-B493-A6B66CC54914@edison.tech> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2024 13:14:50 +0200 To: internals@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [Initial Feedback] PHP User Modules - An Adaptation of ES6 from JavaScript Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=d8c5806a432a472cbb664b8767996c24 From: rob@bottled.codes ("Rob Landers") --d8c5806a432a472cbb664b8767996c24 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jun 29, 2024, at 12:56, Mike Schinkel wrote: >=20 >> Most of it sounds completely impractical to apply in retrospect to a= n existing one with millions of users - apart from the bits we actually = already have, like points 3 and 6. >>=20 >>=20 > You say it is impractical, you claim millions of users, but you don't = address why the specific features are impractical. >=20 > They are no more impractical than any other new language features PHP = has added in recent years (and I am not being critical of what has been = added, to be clear.) So far, nobody has shown how it is practical -- that is on the person pr= oposing the RFC. Ideally, this would be it, you show why it is useful, h= ow to use it, etc. But it is also political. You need to show why people= would use it, why people would rewrite their entire application to use = it (if the RFC calls for it), and so far, nobody has shown that other th= an "there are packages!" >=20 >> Rather than looking at languages which have done things completely di= fferently,=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > "Completely" here is a leading word used in that context. >=20 > There is nothing "completely" different about JavaScript, or Go for th= at matter. All three of JS, Go, and PHP are descendants of C. I cringed at this. There is no direct lineage though they borrow come sy= ntax from C, and if you want to push it, you might as well say they're d= escendants of B which borrowed syntax from BCPL which borrowed syntax fr= om CPL which borrowed it's syntax from ALGOL... eh, no, these languages = are not related to each other. Inspired, maybe. >=20 > We are not talking about APL, Whitespace, Befunge, or Intercal, after = all. >=20 >> I think it would be more useful to look for inspiration for ones whic= h are *similar* to PHP's approach, but have extra features.=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> so there might be good and bad experiences we can learn from there, a= s well. And I'm sure there are others that are much less alien than JS o= r Go. >=20 >=20 > I would argue JS and maybe Go is a lot more similar to PHP than Java o= r C#. But then the alienness is in the eye of the beholder. =20 No, PHP and Go are nothing like each other. With a bit of finangling, yo= u can actually port JavaScript line-for-line to PHP, but not the other w= ay around. If anything, JavaScript is more like PHP than PHP is more lik= e JavaScript. >=20 > You claimed you don't know JS or Go, but I don't know Java or C#, at l= east not enough to be proficient in them. >>=20 >=20 > That said, I really don't think gatekeeping based on the genetics of a= language is the path to improving it. Instead I think objectively evalu= ating the specifics of the proposed features is the better path. And to = me each of those things I mentioned stand on their own and can be justif= ied, as needed. I don't see any gate-keeping here, just people challenging assumptions a= nd pushing for the feature to be better than it is currently being propo= sed. =E2=80=94 Rob --d8c5806a432a472cbb664b8767996c24 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Jun 29,= 2024, at 12:56, Mike Schinkel wrote:

 Most of it =
sounds completely impractical to apply in retrospect to an existing one =
with millions of users - apart from the bits we actually already have, l=
ike points 3 and 6.

<= /blockquote>

You say it is impra= ctical, you claim millions of users, but you don't address why the speci= fic features are impractical.

They are no m= ore impractical than any other new language features PHP has added in re= cent years (and I am not being critical of what has been added, to be cl= ear.)

So far, nobo= dy has shown how it is practical -- that is on the person proposing the = RFC. Ideally, this would be it, you show why it is useful, how to use it= , etc. But it is also political. You need to show why people would use i= t, why people would rewrite their entire application to use it (if the R= FC calls for it), and so far, nobody has shown that other than "there ar= e packages!"


Rather than looking at languages which have d=
one things completely differently, 





"Completely" here is a leading wor= d used in that context.

There is nothing "c= ompletely" different about JavaScript, or Go for that matter.  All three of JS= , Go, and PHP are descendants of C.

I cringed at this. There is no direct lineage t= hough they borrow come syntax from C, and if you want to push it, you mi= ght as well say they're descendants of B which borrowed syntax from BCPL= which borrowed syntax from CPL which borrowed it's syntax from ALGOL...= eh, no, these languages are not related to each other. Inspired, maybe.=


We are not talking abou= t APL, Whitespace, Befunge, or Intercal, after all.
<= br>
I think it would be more=
 useful to look for inspiration for ones which are *similar* to PHP's ap=
proach, but have extra features. 





so t=
here might be good and bad experiences we can learn from there, as well.=
 And I'm sure there are others that are much less alien than JS or Go.


I would argue JS and = maybe Go is a lot more similar to PHP than Java or C#.  But then th= e alienness is in the eye of the beholder.  
<= /div>

No, PHP and Go are nothing like ea= ch other. With a bit of finangling, you can actually port JavaScript lin= e-for-line to PHP, but not the other way around. If anything, JavaScript= is more like PHP than PHP is more like JavaScript.

=

You claimed you don't know JS or G= o, but I don't know Java or C#, at least not enough to be proficient in = them.


= That said, I really don't think gatekeeping based on the genetics of a l= anguage is the path to improving it. Instead I think objectively evaluat= ing the specifics of the proposed features is the better path. And to me= each of those things I mentioned stand on their own and can be justifie= d, as needed.

I do= n't see any gate-keeping here, just people challenging assumptions and p= ushing for the feature to be better than it is currently being proposed.=

=E2=80=94 Rob
--d8c5806a432a472cbb664b8767996c24--