Newsgroups: php.internals
Path: news.php.net
Xref: news.php.net php.internals:124022
Feedback-ID: ifab94697:Fastmail
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.11.0-alpha0-538-g1508afaa2-fm-20240616.001-g1508afaa
Precedence: bulk
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <7c9efb85-766a-4215-ae71-138abbab0c8a@app.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <73D85D81-D3F2-449E-8991-4DEA194552EB@newclarity.net>
References: 
 <CAEUnE0fGZ3jFiBG=GyvnhBzH5a0iO4=n75PM=3+6zLAMrumEvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0acedb8e-34be-4348-907b-4075cf7641fd@app.fastmail.com>
 <CAMrTa2Hhk31hgbr_fR7YAb94YPN030oTkvV5UD_ynRBM664QfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9c20b078-f82a-47fe-af23-2f3cdd233079@app.fastmail.com>
 <CAEUnE0fTwbc8LabwaNUxp9=vWCnes0E+E_zM+a_Ojera=jQSKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <920f33e5-0a2e-436c-86e8-e4bbd699e47b@app.fastmail.com>
 <73D85D81-D3F2-449E-8991-4DEA194552EB@newclarity.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2024 11:51:51 +0200
To: "Mike Schinkel" <mike@newclarity.net>
Cc: internals@lists.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [Initial Feedback] PHP User Modules - An Adaptation of ES6 from
 JavaScript
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary=82a48d228670438d9e1cd6c6592c648b
From: rob@bottled.codes ("Rob Landers")

--82a48d228670438d9e1cd6c6592c648b
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Sat, Jun 29, 2024, at 11:41, Mike Schinkel wrote:
>> On Jun 28, 2024, at 7:45 AM, Rob Landers <rob@bottled.codes> wrote:
>>> Fast forward a bit - PHP 5.3, and the introduction of namespaces wer=
e introduced to deal with the overloaded symbol tables. They are a bit a=
 hotwire as (if I'm not mistaken, it's been a couple years since I read =
the discussion on it) they just quietly prepend the namespace string in =
front of the name of all new symbols declared in the namespace for use e=
lsewhere. As a result, PHP namespaces don't do some of the things we see=
 in the namespaces of other languages (looking at Java and C# here). For=
 example, privacy modifiers within a namespace aren't a thing.
>>=20
>> This would be nice to have ... maybe. But namespace have been around,=
 what, 10-15 years? I think if someone wanted to "fix" it, it would have=
 been fixed by now.
>> Or not. =20
>>=20
>> Never underestimate the power of inertia for maintaining a less than =
ideal status-quo, especially when the decision to change has to be appro=
ved by a 2/3rd vote of committee. =F0=9F=A4=B7=E2=80=8D=E2=99=82=EF=B8=8F
>>=20
> -Mike

I disagree that it is inertia, as there is quite a bit of flexibility an=
d robustness in the current way things are. If you've ever had to get ac=
cess to "internal" methods/fields in other languages, there are quite a =
few hoops.

- Java: as of 11.0 or maybe 8.0 -- it's been awhile since I've had to do=
 this, but you have to create a class in the target "namespace" and expo=
se whatever you need.
- C#: you have to use reflection to gain access to it.

Right now, in PHP, you just "use it" and deal with the consequences of d=
oing so. It's great when you need to work around a bug in a library and =
very little friction. As a library author, I want *some* friction, but I=
 also don't want to force people to come to me and open a PR just for th=
eir use-case (hence why I almost never make classes final as well).

=E2=80=94 Rob
--82a48d228670438d9e1cd6c6592c648b
Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type=3D"text/css">p.Mso=
Normal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>On Sat, Jun 29, 2024, at 11:41, Mike Schinkel wrote:<br><=
/div><blockquote type=3D"cite" id=3D"qt" style=3D"overflow-wrap:break-wo=
rd;"><div class=3D"qt-"><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"qt-"><div cla=
ss=3D"qt-">On Jun 28, 2024, at 7:45 AM, Rob Landers &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:rob@bottled.codes" class=3D"qt-">rob@bottled.codes</a>&gt; wrote:<br><=
/div><div class=3D"qt-"><blockquote type=3D"cite" id=3D"qt-qt" class=3D"=
qt-"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"qt-"><div class=3D"qt-qt-gmail_quote"><di=
v class=3D"qt-">Fast forward a bit - PHP 5.3, and the introduction of na=
mespaces were introduced to deal with the overloaded symbol tables. They=
 are a bit a hotwire as (if I'm not mistaken, it's been a couple years s=
ince I read the discussion on it) they just quietly prepend the namespac=
e string in front of the name of all new symbols declared in the namespa=
ce for use elsewhere. As a result, PHP namespaces don't do some of the t=
hings we see in the namespaces of other languages (looking at Java and C=
# here). For example, privacy modifiers within a namespace aren't a thin=
g.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"qt-"><br></div><div c=
lass=3D"qt-">This would be nice to have ... maybe. But namespace have be=
en around, what, 10-15 years? I think if someone wanted to "fix" it, it =
would have been fixed by now.<br></div></div></blockquote></div><blockqu=
ote style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-le=
ft:40px;border-top-width:initial;border-right-width:initial;border-botto=
m-width:initial;border-left-width:initial;border-top-style:none;border-r=
ight-style:none;border-bottom-style:none;border-left-style:none;border-t=
op-color:initial;border-right-color:initial;border-bottom-color:initial;=
border-left-color:initial;border-image-source:initial;border-image-slice=
:initial;border-image-width:initial;border-image-outset:initial;border-i=
mage-repeat:initial;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px=
;padding-left:0px;" class=3D"qt-"><div class=3D"qt-">Or not. &nbsp;<br><=
/div><div class=3D"qt-"><br></div><div class=3D"qt-">Never underestimate=
 the power of inertia for maintaining a less than ideal status-quo, espe=
cially when the decision to change has to be approved by a 2/3rd vote of=
 committee. =F0=9F=A4=B7=E2=80=8D=E2=99=82=EF=B8=8F<br></div><div class=3D=
"qt-"><br></div></blockquote><div class=3D"qt-">-Mike<br></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>I disagree that it is inertia, as there is quite=
 a bit of flexibility and robustness in the current way things are. If y=
ou've ever had to get access to "internal" methods/fields in other langu=
ages, there are quite a few hoops.<br></div><div><br></div><div>- Java: =
as of 11.0 or maybe 8.0 -- it's been awhile since I've had to do this, b=
ut you have to create a class in the target "namespace" and expose whate=
ver you need.<br></div><div>- C#: you have to use reflection to gain acc=
ess to it.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Right now, in PHP, you just "use=
 it" and deal with the consequences of doing so. It's great when you nee=
d to work around a bug in a library and very little friction. As a libra=
ry author, I want&nbsp;<b>some</b> friction, but I also don't want to fo=
rce people to come to me and open a PR just for their use-case (hence wh=
y I almost never make classes final as well).<br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv id=3D"sig121229152">=E2=80=94 Rob<br></div></body></html>
--82a48d228670438d9e1cd6c6592c648b--