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Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2024 14:41:19 -0700
To: "Jordan LeDoux" <jordan.ledoux@gmail.com>
Cc: internals@lists.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [Initial Feedback] PHP User Modules - An Adaptation of ES6 from
 JavaScript
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From: jimw@trainedmonkey.com ("Jim Winstead")

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On Thu, Jun 27, 2024, at 2:14 PM, Jordan LeDoux wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 12:53=E2=80=AFPM Jim Winstead <jimw@trainedmon=
key.com> wrote:
>> __
>> On Wed, Jun 26, 2024, at 7:15 PM, Michael Morris wrote:
>>> PHP User Modules are php files that are brought into the runtime thr=
ough a new parser that is able to generate faster and more concise runti=
me code by removing support for problematic features and imposing a stri=
ct mode by default. They focus on PHP as a language and not as a templat=
e engine.
>>=20
>> I think the problem I have with this proposal is calling these "PHP U=
ser Modules". Here's an admittedly uncharitable rephrase of this:
>>=20
>> "NewLanguage User Modules are NewLanguage files that are brought into=
 the PHP runtime through a new parser that may theoretically be able to =
generate faster and more concise runtime code by implementing a differen=
t language based on much of the syntax from PHP. This new language does =
not prioritize its use as a template language for HTML."
>=20
> Do you feel that Phar is a separate language? Is PHP no longer PHP if =
the @ error suppression is removed? I'm really unclear about the point y=
ou are making here, even if I ignore the "uncharitable" rephrase.

If I read through the 11 bullet points under "User Module Files" in the =
original proposal, I see two that are actually related to modules and mo=
st of them are just lopping off features from the PHP language in ways b=
oth small (no need for <?php) and huge (changing the scoping operator to=
 '.' instead of '::', '->', and '\').

The angle I am coming at this from is improving the developer experience=
 around "packages" or "modules" or whatever you want to call them, and s=
o much of this proposal doesn't seem to be about that.

I could have made that point in other ways, and I'm sorry that my first =
attempt came off as insulting. It really concerned me when I already saw=
 discussion about taking this off-list and going into the weeds on techn=
ical details when the problem that is being addressed by this proposal i=
s extremely unclear to me.

Jim
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<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type=3D"text/css">p.Mso=
Normal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}
p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}
p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style=3D"f=
ont-family:Arial;">On Thu, Jun 27, 2024, at 2:14 PM, Jordan LeDoux wrote=
:<br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" id=3D"qt" style=3D""><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div class=3D"qt-gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"qt-gmail_attr=
">On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 12:53=E2=80=AFPM Jim Winstead &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:jimw@trainedmonkey.com">jimw@trainedmonkey.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"qt-gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin=
-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bor=
der-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1=
ex;"><div class=3D"qt-msg6995425435736615221"><div><u></u><br></div><div=
><div style=3D"font-family:Arial;">On Wed, Jun 26, 2024, at 7:15 PM, Mic=
hael Morris wrote:<br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" id=3D"qt-m_6995425=
435736615221qt"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>PHP User Modules are php files tha=
t are brought into the runtime through a new parser that is able to gene=
rate faster and more concise runtime code by removing support for proble=
matic features and imposing a strict mode by default. They focus on PHP =
as a language and not as a template engine.<br></div></div></blockquote>=
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Ar=
ial;">I think the problem I have with this proposal is calling these "PH=
P User Modules". Here's an admittedly uncharitable rephrase of this:<br>=
</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Arial;">"NewLanguage User Modules are NewLanguage files that are bro=
ught into the PHP runtime through a new parser that may theoretically be=
 able to generate faster and more concise runtime code by implementing a=
 different language based on much of the syntax from PHP. This new langu=
age does not prioritize its use as a template language for HTML."<br></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Do you feel that Phar is=
 a separate language? Is PHP no longer PHP if the @ error suppression is=
 removed? I'm really unclear about the point you are making here, even i=
f I ignore the "uncharitable" rephrase.<br></div></div></div></blockquot=
e><div style=3D"font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:=
Arial;">If I read through the 11 bullet points under "User Module Files"=
 in the original proposal, I see two that are actually related to module=
s and most of them are just lopping off features from the PHP language i=
n ways both small (no need for &lt;?php) and huge (changing the scoping =
operator to '.' instead of '::', '-&gt;', and '\').<br></div><div style=3D=
"font-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial;">The ang=
le I am coming at this from is improving the developer experience around=
 "packages" or "modules" or whatever you want to call them, and so much =
of this proposal doesn't seem to be about that.<br></div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family:Arial;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial;">I could h=
ave made that point in other ways, and I'm sorry that my first attempt c=
ame off as insulting. It really concerned me when I already saw discussi=
on about taking this off-list and going into the weeds on technical deta=
ils when the problem that is being addressed by this proposal is extreme=
ly unclear to me.<br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial;"><br></div><=
div style=3D"font-family:Arial;">Jim<br></div></body></html>
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