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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:53:36 -0700
Message-ID: <C043E4034185BB40B01C76980AC639C066F1D6@cacexc04.americas.cpqcorp.net>
Thread-Topic: [PHP-DEV] Unfulfilled promises... forever experimental extensions... all over again
Thread-Index: AcSLs+NEfqjaulmgQLinmtGTnU1/OAAAD0Gw
To: <internals@lists.php.net>
Cc: "Rasmus Lerdorf" <rasmus@php.net>
Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] Unfulfilled promises... forever experimental extensions... all over again
From: roshan.naik@hp.com ("Naik, Roshan")


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:rasmus@php.net]
> Your initial message didn't include a single proposed=20
> solution.  The only
> thing that could even be considered close is the very last sentence:
>=20
>   Hopefully belts will be tightened up around the extensions and the
>   responsibility taken up by their authors.
>=20
> If there is something else in there that you consider a=20
> proposal, please
> point me at it. =20

That is one path that should be considered...how to,if at=20
all possible, tighten things up around extensions that are made=20
available as part of standard distribution. Make them show stoppers
if thats what is needed. The reason I left it slightly high level=20
was to let others also do some thinking.
This path would need more community feedback as to how to=20
acceptably do it ...if it can be done. =20


The second suggestion was in the second last paragraph in my 2nd email.

2nd sugesstion is an excellent way to tighten things up. But since this
is a community, lets see if the community likes it or what other
effective alternatives they can think of.=20


-Roshan






> -----Original Message-----
> From: Naik, Roshan=20
> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 2:14 PM
> To: internals@lists.php.net
> Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] Unfulfilled promises... forever experimental
> extensions... all over again
>=20
>=20
> Rasmus wrote:
> >> Really ? Are you sure ?
> >> http://www.zend.com/zend/week/week146.php
>=20
> > Ok, one self-serving fix.
>=20
> I was (again) expecting exactly that kind of response. I dont=20
> understand why so much arrogance exists among a select few. And
> it unfortunately reflects the community's attitude.
>=20
> So nobody till date or in future will benefit from the fix right ?
> A self-serving fix may be today. But a problem waiting to happen
> on other platforms anytime(if not happened already).=20
> But lets leave that issue off to the side, its a red herring as=20
> far as the central issue here is concerned.
>=20
>=20
> Rasmus wrote:
> > So, how about proposing an actual solution instead of pissing=20
> > off the very=20
> > people who you will need help from to improve things?
>=20
> I dont beleive all the people are being pissed off. They are just
> not speaking up their concerns (given up hope?)
> I dont see why anyone pointing out a problem is pissing _you_ off.=20
> Perhaps then every individual filing a bug report
> should be pissing you off too. They should be asked to
> go fix it themselves...and not bother anyone here as they are=20
> not part of the "inner-circle" or "the community". =20
>=20
>=20
> Rasmus wrote:
> > Some don't contribute anything, but they=20
> > are still part of this community.  By being part of the=20
> community you have=20
> > a voice and through our extremely open approach you can=20
> easily contribute=20
> > your code and ideas.
>=20
> In theory. But clear evidence to the contrary here.
>=20
>=20
> Rasmus wrote:
> >  This=20
> > solution may=20
> > be a set of general criteria an extension has to meet to leave its=20
> > experimental state, a set of test tools, or a group of=20
> > developers that you=20
> > convince with your obvious social skills to contribute to=20
> this effort.
>=20
>=20
> I am glad to see a slight progress from "please bring up
> concrete problems"  to "please bring up actual solutions"
>=20
> I already proposed a couple solutions in my 1st and 2nd emails.
> Please review them again. More solutions will come once people
> take up the problem seriously.
>=20
>=20
> Thomas wrote:
> > Actually, MS has a responsibility to make money, and as you=20
> said, there is =20
> > no way get everybody over to FF. =20
>=20
> Also it is not entirely correct to say that no one behind
> the curtains of PHP internals isn't making money off of PHP.
> Some do some dont..directly or indirectly. But this topic is also a=20
> red herring to the central discussion. So lets leave it alone.
>=20
> Rasmus wrote:
> > Then you better put on some protection, because this isn't going to=20
> > change.  Like I said, we develop software for ourselves, not for=20
> > customers. =20
>=20
> Not all opensource projects suffer from the same=20
> problems that PHP (more accurately a select few here)
> is exhibiting.=20
>=20
>=20
> As the previosly quoted user said ....
>=20
> <quote>
>  "Open Source" is a philosophy. It shouldn't be an excuse.
> </quote>
>=20
>=20
> > We welcome contributions, but we react rather badly when=20
> > people come along and demand that we volunteer more of our time.=20
>=20
> So far no one demanded to volunteer more time. Just requested
> to prioritize things that more important, higher.=20
>=20
> In much of the propaganda about PHP5 I read, Did i read anything
> outright calling out the fact that "php5 is not backward compatible" ?
> no!
>=20
> Nor did I see anything that said, "hey we have these new features,=20
> but you have to fix them before using them". If someone else
> in "real life" did that to you... you would be upset too.
>=20
>=20
> PHP releases seem to be driven more by whats important for the "oomph=20
> factor" to make a big splash. Clearly something has to be learnt from=20
> the other lowly languages.
>=20
>=20
> In another mail (about apache2 support) I saw PHP's virtues=20
> being extolled=20
> as "PHP is the glue". And that its strong point is that it=20
> allows users=20
> to tie all kinds of disparate functionality ( xml , image=20
> editing, etc )
> together.=20
>=20
> The quality of most of that "glue" and its usefulness is=20
> being question.
> And some evidently dont like it.
>=20
>=20
> Andi wrote:
> > I suggest we stop this thread now. It's just taking up time=20
> we could use to=20
> > more fruitfully in improving PHP. Please move any further=20
> rants off the=20
> > internals mailing list and keep them personal.
>=20
> So these are all "useless rants" and wont improve PHP ? I=20
> hope its a personal
> opinion. This is a nice way to snub off concrete problems.
>=20
>=20
> Andi wrote:
> > I do think that if there are some concrete suggestions to=20
> be heard that's=20
> > fine, but try and keep it short, to the point, and constructive.
>=20
>=20
> So none of the suggestions were constructive ? or perhaps you didnt=20
> read them.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Andi wrote:
> > Personally, I agree that the "Fix it yourself" argument is=20
> not a good one=20
> > and isn't always relevant
>=20
>=20
> Acknowledged several times before...but agressively misused till date.
>=20
>=20
> Andi wrote:
> >, but if you'd look not at what developers say=20
> > after you piss them off with such emails,=20
>=20
> Why does it piss them off ? What is "such emails" ? This is=20
> nothing personal.
> A select few are indeed taking it personally. But I dont beleive this=20
> reflects the community at large.
>=20
> This is purely bringing up an issue that is a problem in=20
> "real life" and
> is not a problem for "the experimenting engineer".
>=20
>=20
> Andi wrote:
> > but how the PHP development team=20
> > has worked in real life,=20
>=20
> Thats a blanket generalization...to the point of aggressive=20
> ignorance and
> silly complacency.
>=20
> This is nothing but a "real life" problem we are talking about.=20
>=20
> So far.. some people seem to be interested in attacking=20
> peripheral issues
>  like ... "you didnt contribute a damn thing" ...."this is a=20
> useless rant"
>  "nobody is making money here" ..."fix it youself" ..."not a=20
> good quote"
>   ... "thats a self-serving fix"
>=20
> In another 2 years (on the 6th epxerimental birthday for sockets )
> and PHP6 is released, everyone will have forgotten about what
> PHP5 didnt deliver ...or even less of what PHP4 promised &=20
> didnt deliver.
> Somebody will again notice the repetition of promises=20
> and point it out ... and get snubbed.=20
>=20
> Such snubbing off is the prime reason why most people prefer to=20
> stay quiet right now. I remember aggressive (but weak) justifications=20
> to why PHP's OO model was the right way for PHP .. and now=20
> here we are!=20
>=20
>=20
> Hiding (in the bowels of documentation and source code)=20
> the fact that the "banner features" are not ready=20
>  ... is dishonesty.  Lets not do that.=20
>=20
> -Roshan
>=20