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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:14:18 -0700
Message-ID: <C043E4034185BB40B01C76980AC639C066F1D4@cacexc04.americas.cpqcorp.net>
Thread-Topic: [PHP-DEV] Unfulfilled promises... forever experimental extensions... all over again
Thread-Index: AcSLSxEq/2h5U5+cRZeyJ37O1zT8dgAZoTeA
To: <internals@lists.php.net>
Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] Unfulfilled promises... forever experimental extensions... all over again
From: roshan.naik@hp.com ("Naik, Roshan")

Rasmus wrote:
>> Really ? Are you sure ?
>> http://www.zend.com/zend/week/week146.php

> Ok, one self-serving fix.

I was (again) expecting exactly that kind of response. I dont=20
understand why so much arrogance exists among a select few. And
it unfortunately reflects the community's attitude.

So nobody till date or in future will benefit from the fix right ?
A self-serving fix may be today. But a problem waiting to happen
on other platforms anytime(if not happened already).=20
But lets leave that issue off to the side, its a red herring as=20
far as the central issue here is concerned.


Rasmus wrote:
> So, how about proposing an actual solution instead of pissing=20
> off the very=20
> people who you will need help from to improve things?

I dont beleive all the people are being pissed off. They are just
not speaking up their concerns (given up hope?)
I dont see why anyone pointing out a problem is pissing _you_ off.=20
Perhaps then every individual filing a bug report
should be pissing you off too. They should be asked to
go fix it themselves...and not bother anyone here as they are=20
not part of the "inner-circle" or "the community". =20


Rasmus wrote:
> Some don't contribute anything, but they=20
> are still part of this community.  By being part of the community you =
have=20
> a voice and through our extremely open approach you can easily =
contribute=20
> your code and ideas.

In theory. But clear evidence to the contrary here.


Rasmus wrote:
>  This=20
> solution may=20
> be a set of general criteria an extension has to meet to leave its=20
> experimental state, a set of test tools, or a group of=20
> developers that you=20
> convince with your obvious social skills to contribute to this effort.


I am glad to see a slight progress from "please bring up
concrete problems"  to "please bring up actual solutions"

I already proposed a couple solutions in my 1st and 2nd emails.
Please review them again. More solutions will come once people
take up the problem seriously.


Thomas wrote:
> Actually, MS has a responsibility to make money, and as you said, =
there is =20
> no way get everybody over to FF. =20

Also it is not entirely correct to say that no one behind
the curtains of PHP internals isn't making money off of PHP.
Some do some dont..directly or indirectly. But this topic is also a=20
red herring to the central discussion. So lets leave it alone.

Rasmus wrote:
> Then you better put on some protection, because this isn't going to=20
> change.  Like I said, we develop software for ourselves, not for=20
> customers. =20

Not all opensource projects suffer from the same=20
problems that PHP (more accurately a select few here)
is exhibiting.=20


As the previosly quoted user said ....

<quote>
 "Open Source" is a philosophy. It shouldn't be an excuse.
</quote>


> We welcome contributions, but we react rather badly when=20
> people come along and demand that we volunteer more of our time.=20

So far no one demanded to volunteer more time. Just requested
to prioritize things that more important, higher.=20

In much of the propaganda about PHP5 I read, Did i read anything
outright calling out the fact that "php5 is not backward compatible" ?
no!

Nor did I see anything that said, "hey we have these new features,=20
but you have to fix them before using them". If someone else
in "real life" did that to you... you would be upset too.


PHP releases seem to be driven more by whats important for the "oomph=20
factor" to make a big splash. Clearly something has to be learnt from=20
the other lowly languages.


In another mail (about apache2 support) I saw PHP's virtues being =
extolled=20
as "PHP is the glue". And that its strong point is that it allows users=20
to tie all kinds of disparate functionality ( xml , image editing, etc )
together.=20

The quality of most of that "glue" and its usefulness is being question.
And some evidently dont like it.


Andi wrote:
> I suggest we stop this thread now. It's just taking up time we could =
use to=20
> more fruitfully in improving PHP. Please move any further rants off =
the=20
> internals mailing list and keep them personal.

So these are all "useless rants" and wont improve PHP ? I hope its a =
personal
opinion. This is a nice way to snub off concrete problems.


Andi wrote:
> I do think that if there are some concrete suggestions to be heard =
that's=20
> fine, but try and keep it short, to the point, and constructive.


So none of the suggestions were constructive ? or perhaps you didnt=20
read them.



Andi wrote:
> Personally, I agree that the "Fix it yourself" argument is not a good =
one=20
> and isn't always relevant


Acknowledged several times before...but agressively misused till date.


Andi wrote:
>, but if you'd look not at what developers say=20
> after you piss them off with such emails,=20

Why does it piss them off ? What is "such emails" ? This is nothing =
personal.
A select few are indeed taking it personally. But I dont beleive this=20
reflects the community at large.

This is purely bringing up an issue that is a problem in "real life" and
is not a problem for "the experimenting engineer".


Andi wrote:
> but how the PHP development team=20
> has worked in real life,=20

Thats a blanket generalization...to the point of aggressive ignorance =
and
silly complacency.

This is nothing but a "real life" problem we are talking about.=20

So far.. some people seem to be interested in attacking peripheral =
issues
 like ... "you didnt contribute a damn thing" ...."this is a useless =
rant"
 "nobody is making money here" ..."fix it youself" ..."not a good quote"
  ... "thats a self-serving fix"

In another 2 years (on the 6th epxerimental birthday for sockets )
and PHP6 is released, everyone will have forgotten about what
PHP5 didnt deliver ...or even less of what PHP4 promised & didnt =
deliver.
Somebody will again notice the repetition of promises=20
and point it out ... and get snubbed.=20

Such snubbing off is the prime reason why most people prefer to=20
stay quiet right now. I remember aggressive (but weak) justifications=20
to why PHP's OO model was the right way for PHP .. and now here we are!=20


Hiding (in the bowels of documentation and source code)=20
the fact that the "banner features" are not ready=20
 ... is dishonesty.  Lets not do that.=20

-Roshan