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Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:22:07 -0700
Message-ID: <C043E4034185BB40B01C76980AC639C066F1D2@cacexc04.americas.cpqcorp.net>
Thread-Topic: [PHP-DEV] Unfulfilled promises... forever experimental extensions... all over again
Thread-Index: AcSLBYuwwlXYsXIFR0mERXX7Ix5eGQABgrvw
To: "Rasmus Lerdorf" <rasmus@php.net>
Cc: <internals@lists.php.net>
Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] Unfulfilled promises... forever experimental extensions... all over again
From: roshan.naik@hp.com ("Naik, Roshan")


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:rasmus@php.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 5:42 PM
> To: Naik, Roshan
> Cc: internals@lists.php.net
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Unfulfilled promises... forever experimental
> extensions... all over again
>=20
>=20
> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Naik, Roshan wrote:
> > Hopefully belts will be tightened up around the extensions and the
> > responsibility taken up by their authors.
>=20
> Wow, that was quite a rant from someone who hasn't contributed a damn
> thing.
>=20


Really ? Are you sure ?
http://www.zend.com/zend/week/week146.php

Even if I were someone who never contributed anything to php
and is just a user of it ... does my concern or that
of thousands of others in the same boat count at all ?=20
From that stmt one can only infer I guess they are all non-entities.=20
This is not a community culture but a detrimental coterie culture.


> People volunteer their time and effort to this project.  There are no
> guarantees that any of this code won't make your cpu melt or=20
> cause your
> curtains to catch fire.  Ranting at a bunch of volunteers is utterly
> useless and counterproductive.  If you have a genuine=20
> interest in seeing
> things improve, get involved.  Pick your favorite extension that is
> troubling you, talk to the authors and other users and figure out what
> needs to be done to solve its remaining issues.  If you do that, your
> words might mean something.
>=20


Precisely the attitude expected (indifference and excuses),=20
as was pointed out concisely by another user.

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=3Dphp-dev&m=3D103161229529458&w=3D2


The central point that these features never made it to
production quality previously and that no reason to believe the=20
new cool features advertised may meet the same fate=20
is overlooked and left unaddressed.



And as to what Andi wrote:
> Thanks for this quite useless and unproductive email.
> I suggest to inform yourself slightly better on the tons of =
improvements=20
> the PHP development team have made and where we are today vs. 4 years =
ago.
> I suggest next time, if you want to be productive, you can contact us =
with=20
> a concrete problem and proposed solution.

So that's not a concrete problem ?  The proposed solution as I mentioned
is to start tightening things up where too much things have been lax.=20

And you get me wrong, I am not saying PHP5 is worthless and there are
no useful features. There are clearly many nice improvements. Users
simply like to see those things completed before shipping them.

My intention is not to point fingers at people. It is to point finger at
problems. A response that either refutes the existence of the problem
or the affirms the existence of the problem and how (if at all) can
be tackled is a more appropriate response. Rather than the usual =
"buzz-off"

As the above quoted user posted...

"Nothing prevents us from treating people with patience and courtesy.
Except of course bad manners and bad attitude."

In theory everything can be marked experimental...  the zend engine =
(object model=20
changed) and other the core parts too. But a certain quality level=20
is indeed being enforced upon, even today, before its made available=20
as a release quality product.=20

Another solution is to leave such "not-yet-ready" things out in the =
other=20
extension repositories, allow them to mature and stabilize there
before shipping it with a standard distribution. That way there
is an incentive for authors to complete their work and this encourages=20
competing implementations. The healthy competition also enhances=20
quality of the components in the product.=20

The best one gets to be part of the standard distribution...=20
a nice reward for the efforts. Rather than rewards first
and work later (if he got a chance).=20


-Roshan