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In-Reply-To: <CABigaAWwftpRBYZtkcWbqZJYBZA-f58niwmdco0KYtrKx+eHug@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 18:24:11 +0200
Message-ID: <CADyq6sKTK0_3G6CoLPvAfDL+HyM54VJrXV9gWC5MKrhKQ2AJKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks
To: autaut03@gmail.com
Cc: Erick de Azevedo Lima <ericklima.comp@gmail.com>, Robert Landers <landers.robert@gmail.com>, 
	internals@lists.php.net
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From: ocramius@gmail.com (Marco Pivetta)

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On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 at 16:56, Alex Wells <autaut03@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 4:01=E2=80=AFPM Erick de Azevedo Lima <
> ericklima.comp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Maybe if such a feedback was given before and it was decided to go for a
>> trimmed version of the feature, maybe Ilija/Larry could have had less wo=
rk
>> to implement and test all the variantes they've done. I think if a perso=
n
>> has such numerous concerns, it should be exposed ASAP even if your thoug=
hts
>> are not totally clear. If you had a chat directly with Ilija/Larry, they
>> would be aware of such concerns and would expend efforts to address thes=
e
>> concerns.
>>
>
> To an outsider, it looks wild when feedback starts coming in right before
> the vote starts. What's even more startling is that there are people with
> voting rights who have never participated in the discussion at all, yet
> have a right to wordlessly affect the vote's outcome. I sincerely hope
> Ilija and Larry's work don't go to waste here.
>

Reminder to not run into a sunk cost fallacy.
I totally understand the sentiment around the work done, but the outcome is
something very impactful.
Work may or may not be wasted, but that's the nature of RFCs.


The current RFC makes a lot of people uneasy, and JRF's comment resonates
strongly with my opinion.
To me, further overloading the arrow (`->`) operator with this much added
context is a mistake, regardless of how much detail was added in handling
all the weird edge cases of the language: in fact, going as far as
exploring by-ref semantics (instead of just saying "no" to them) is also a
big problem.

Marco Pivetta

https://mastodon.social/@ocramius

https://ocramius.github.io/

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 at 16:56, Alex We=
lls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:autaut03@gmail.com">autaut03@gmail.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 4:01=E2=80=AFPM Erick de Aze=
vedo Lima &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ericklima.comp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>ericklima.comp@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div=
><div>Maybe if such a feedback was given before and it was decided to go fo=
r a trimmed version of the feature, maybe Ilija/Larry could have had less w=
ork to implement and test all the variantes they&#39;ve done. I think if a =
person has such numerous concerns, it should be exposed ASAP even if your t=
houghts are not totally clear. If you had a chat directly with Ilija/Larry,=
 they would be aware of such concerns and would expend efforts to address t=
hese concerns.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>To an outsider, =
it looks wild when feedback starts coming in right before the vote starts. =
What&#39;s even more startling is that there are people with voting rights =
who have never participated in the discussion at all, yet have a right to w=
ordlessly affect the vote&#39;s outcome. I sincerely hope Ilija and Larry&#=
39;s work don&#39;t go to waste here.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div><div>Reminder to not run into a sunk cost fallacy.</div><div>I=
 totally understand the sentiment around the work done, but the outcome is =
something very impactful.</div><div>Work may or may not be wasted, but that=
&#39;s the nature of RFCs.<div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div>The curr=
ent RFC makes a lot of people uneasy, and JRF&#39;s comment resonates stron=
gly with my opinion.<br><div>To me, further overloading the arrow (`-&gt;`)=
 operator with this much added context is a mistake, regardless of how much=
 detail was added in handling all the weird edge cases of the language: in =
fact, going as far as exploring by-ref semantics (instead of just saying &q=
uot;no&quot; to them) is also a big problem.<br></div><div><div><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"ltr">Marco Pivetta <br><br><a href=3D"https://mastodon.social/@ocramius" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://mastodon.social/@ocramius</a><br><br><a href=3D"ht=
tps://ocramius.github.io/" target=3D"_blank">https://ocramius.github.io/</a=
></div></div></div></div>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div>

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