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Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 17:53:35 +0000
To: "php internals" <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Package for PHP
From: larry@garfieldtech.com ("Larry Garfield")

On Fri, May 19, 2023, at 2:02 PM, Rowan Tommins wrote:
> On Fri, 19 May 2023 at 08:45, Arvids Godjuks <arvids.godjuks@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think this whole thread can be summarized into a single statement:
>>
>> "Let's integrate PSR standards into PHP core and ship those interfaces as
>> part of the language"
>>
>
>
> That's one of the angles that's come up, but there are also some other
> interesting ideas, a lot of which are actually independent of each other,
> including:
>
> - implementing simple core functions in PHP rather than C
> - using namespaces as a form of versioning
> - having a default set of includes which can be over-ridden by user code
>
>
> The one recurring theme I would pick up on though is a general optimism
> about how much we could add, and get right. Call me cynical, but I don't
> share that optimism. The main reason a lot of the things being discussed
> don't already exist is not that PHP only accepts contributions in C, or
> that Composer packages aren't installed by default; it's that nobody has
> worked out the One True Design.
>
> Moving the discussion to this list rather than PHP-FIG, or PHPLeague, or
> Symfony, etc, won't make that design process any easier. If anything, it
> will make it harder - the stakes are higher, and the abilities for rework
> and forking far more restricted.

I would also note that a One True Design rarely comes from a committee-of-the-whole-who-is-mostly-disengaged.  Symfony has a very clear core leadership that can Decide Things(tm), which helps to keep the design consistent.  The same is true of Monolog, Guzzle, Ramsey/UUID, PHPUnit, and the rest of the "de facto standard library."  In the case of FIG, we moved away from the "everyone in one big pile" approach many years ago toward dedicated, explicitly-named, explicitly-empowered working groups, and it has been a much more successful approach.

(As a side note, nominations are open now for the FIG Core Committee and secretary positions, if anyone is interested.)

Internals, in its current form, is structurally incapable of the design decisions that would need to be made for a "default versions of PSRs bundled with the language" initiative, regardless of whether it's written in C or PHP.

--Larry Garfield