Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:120350 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 33048 invoked from network); 18 May 2023 19:16:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO php-smtp4.php.net) (45.112.84.5) by pb1.pair.com with SMTP; 18 May 2023 19:16:24 -0000 Received: from php-smtp4.php.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by php-smtp4.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0599F18004D for ; Thu, 18 May 2023 12:16:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on php-smtp4.php.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-ASN: AS15169 209.85.128.0/17 X-Spam-Virus: No X-Envelope-From: Received: from mail-vs1-f48.google.com (mail-vs1-f48.google.com [209.85.217.48]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by php-smtp4.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Thu, 18 May 2023 12:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-f48.google.com with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-437d8f1f04fso99762137.1 for ; Thu, 18 May 2023 12:16:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1684437381; x=1687029381; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=mNqpZByLonqQcp8Z4sHitXEzu23lfYOu43wh9djCh8g=; b=Tbb/gYo3t/6XUFYG1GEHY/TKwo7GoV0O4SfDjME6facgYNoHhUUdhLBy/E2veLZaVB j6QfkyjotGsQGwwgcPD9XDUcvu++XGmyTsSuMOgEOuoiQGY2L/Hua1JNfvIlTMqiFOvh 2aFNtl5en8XAsUVo/Agrh/Y6iCI5ujjLnMVkQ0mpdfug0D2TbiPTl94kfrcuuBIqnTeu TCYIC64fPrvGfKvDyQJNY1NpsW9Rnk4wTKmkWbAghoO58B9elxD0RWNmqaq5FEuYtDbb hvsrWR/mUwYU+aLCkgAFZ1qKzHjEV9aHPwi9qEGIgyqEhNYRPmF+aJrnhg2uw2U6Omon dZ4Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1684437381; x=1687029381; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=mNqpZByLonqQcp8Z4sHitXEzu23lfYOu43wh9djCh8g=; b=HTA0zTsV4fEuxXYtLTdGOwTFBJBRbWjswUU7i/IlJtGfBo7qB4VIdDzXCPYFftPwV+ QdFDwc9pBj25aOz5WrFl0/jqvqUKbRaKSFAk92ajtmwm7Ae9UJTUVE1h9vet869KxyvS mtUEC+BgFFSDT1c60jmpe2Rs4GohXMV3+ARAXzlnzE8wLEvsJjCRzLEwC8R8/jmbhN0Y YT6dMy/ZKc6vO6BmL0Ag3O/7UJnsaZpnH3Y8DuzOzhRFhE4W+ybzN23HesSfe3jT79dJ lNawNOdIo5Lj/RQoWvFw2JrXnsWnH7LaV7PIMgl6cLkIUCoE0YWD03eSXkwQ5I/Xdb1E tRAg== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDxlNXx0MUixgkLb2DBtHXjRnzYSr5JuYEEXUG5VcoI4Wl47FGQw MZI19VgakmFaGNC0V4mH2LDxmoQC2Dlz2F3A3V5uoR4J X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ4i7N+/3sx5CfJ8YtnV2WAANGKLFmcKi5MPn+V9hwJn7vPBC0iFfFO76mJGe0Q8JUxQLJZOpWcqrlJZ/3CfgnY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:5793:b0:436:275b:40ee with SMTP id dh19-20020a056102579300b00436275b40eemr3630087vsb.0.1684437380766; Thu, 18 May 2023 12:16:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000201d9897f$aa9f9fa0$ffdedee0$@roze.lv> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 16:15:44 -0300 Message-ID: To: Rowan Tommins Cc: PHP internals Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ba1fe905fbfca30d" Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Package for PHP From: deleugyn@gmail.com (Deleu) --000000000000ba1fe905fbfca30d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 2:35=E2=80=AFPM Rowan Tommins wrote: > On Thu, 18 May 2023 at 16:27, Deleu wrote: > > Monolog is a great example of what PHP is missing - a single library for = a > > purpose. I have never worked with any other library besides Monolog and= I > > never worked on any project which didn't have it installed. Perhaps my > > bubble might be a limiting factor here, but I get a feeling that Monolo= g > is > > considered to be The Logging PHP Library. > > > > > Then in what sense is it "missing"? What value would be served by placing > an elephant logo on it, and renaming it "PHPLog=E2=84=A2"? > I meant exactly the opposite. Monolog is an example of what PHP (is missing =3D=3D=3D doesn't have enough of). There's hardly any reason to re-release = it under the PHP umbrella. Monolog already won the log battle. I can't say the same for virtually anything else, to be honest. Some folks might say that Guzzle won the HTTP battle, I just disagree and think we could have something better by default, such as Python's `request` Library, but I can also see such controversy being lost and leaving PHP without an HTTP Client built-in. That would be a matter for each individual RFC. > > Laravel's `Arr` class also didn't get scrutinized by PHP RFC so there's > no > > way to know whether it's all good, some good or all bad. > > > > > I don't think PHP's decision-making process can be held up as a shining > example of good governance, in contrast to everyone else's anarchy. I don= 't > know much about Laravel's governance, but I am quite sure every change is > discussed and iterated on before release. In fact, they probably have a > whole bunch of standards and processes that PHP is lacking, and would hav= e > to invent to make any new library a success. > I didn't mean anything about PHP's governance, to be honest. I am, however, very aware of the community battle around frameworks. I like Laravel's Arr class, but there are PHP developers that hate all things Laravel. What PHP governance brings here is that if it can't be agreed on, it won't be included. So perhaps an RFC discussing PHP's Array functions could end up taking some of Laravel's implementations or none. My point here was mostly about the fact that a PHP Standard Package addition going through PHP RFC has a lower entry barrier compared to built in C, but a higher entry level than anybody in the PHP community creating a package they personally like for themselves. The combined experience of internals participants is at least pretty good to bring a lot of perspectives. --=20 Marco Deleu --000000000000ba1fe905fbfca30d--