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Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 14:12:38 -0700
To: internals@lists.php.net
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary=a32a67a073a847dd9e100b97bc303130
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Improving Mailing-List interactions - was: [PHP-DEV] Moving PHP
 internals to GitHub
From: krinkle@fastmail.com ("Timo Tijhof")

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With regards to user interfaces for email itself, I'd like to mention th=
at there are many hybrids out there that work for many communities. I'm =
not proposing this in any way. I'm quite happy for PHP to use mailing li=
sts, and personally would recommend improving the existing web interface=
, and to perhaps prepare an FAQ/tips-n-tricks to get started, such as se=
tting up the emails to go into a folder and linking to how to do this wi=
th popular email providers/apps.

To mention a few in case there is interest in migrating instead of impro=
ving:

* Mailman. Probably the most of not one of the most popular softwares to=
 manage mailing lists at scale (W3C, Curl, Python, Wikimedia, etc.). The=
 latest version, Mailman3 features the "Hyperkitty", which presents the =
archive in an interactive read-write fashion rather than merely read-onl=
y. Effectively making it feel like a forum, discussion board, Discourse,=
 etc from the web UI. This doesn't affect the backend, which remains ful=
ly email-based.

* Topicbox. From the folks at Fastmail, this is marketed as a better int=
erface for business/team email (they don't call it a "mailing list" or a=
 "forum"), but it is effectively a mailing list server with a forum inte=
rface allowing you to create threads and reply from either your email ap=
p, or from the web interface. This one feels quite a bit more mature and=
 polished than Hyperkitty and provides a less leaky abstraction (e.g. do=
esn't feel like a shim over top of email).

* Google Groups. This is not freely licensed software obviously, but it =
is probably the second most common way to manage mailing lists at scale.=
 It has a solid web interface where you can participate fully, including=
 to turn off your own personal "email" side of things if you prefer not =
to be notified through there, or you can choose to sign up with digests =
where you might get a weekly summary as a way to be nudged back in. This=
 is especially handy for people who do like email as a way to be notifie=
d, but perhaps have nothing else in their life using Google Groups so th=
ey're not likely to see messages there unless something links them there=
, which the weekly digets would accomplish.

* Discourse. This is effectively the inverse of Google Groups and least =
like a "real" mailing list. I'd describe Discourse as a web discussion f=
orum first, and mailing list second. Afaik it does offer full participat=
ion via email. By default you only get notified of replies to threads yo=
u've opted into to subscribing to but you can subscribe to a whole categ=
ory/subforum for new threads, and can reply-by-email to post comments wi=
thout using their web app.

Probably the most incremental step (after improving) is Mailman, assumin=
g an import of the archive is possible with URL-compatible redirects. Ag=
ain, I'm not proposing this, but might as well have it out there as a le=
ss bad option in case people are drawn to migrating.

-- Timo


On Thu, 13 Apr 2023, at 01:29, Andreas Heigl wrote:
> Hey all
>=20
> On 12.04.23 22:44, Larry Garfield wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 12, 2023, at 6:42 PM, Rowan Tommins wrote:
> >=20
> >=20
> >> Which brings me back to my earlier point: I wonder how much of the
> >> reaction is really about e-mail itself, and how much is just the
> >> documentation and sign-up forms you encounter *before* you hit the =
list.
> >> Because if it's the latter, migrating the entire community to a new
> >> platform won't help - we'll still suck at introducing anyone to that
> >> platform - and most of what we need is someone who's good with word=
s to
> >> update some website copy.
> >=20
> > I agree, and it's a common pattern, both here and in the earlier thr=
ead about deprecations/evolution.
> >=20
> > Problems exist.  Both with the mailing list setup we have, and the e=
volution/deprecation process.  It's not reasonable to deny either.
> >=20
> > But so often, people lead with "and here's why we should rm -rf and =
start over" or "and here's why you're all terrible" or other extremely n=
ot-helpful "suggestions."  That poisons the well, and totally saps any e=
nergy for working on the things that can and should be improved incremen=
tally.
> >=20
> > It makes me very sad, because if someone were actually to volunteer =
to overhaul the mailing list signup process and verify that it actually,=
 you know, works reliably, there's a good chance they'd be greeted with =
open arms.  (And a fair amount of access skepticism I'm sure, but still,=
 it's no secret that we'd benefit from that.)  But that's not what happe=
ns.
> >=20
>=20
> I would like to take this as a first step:
>=20
> As I already do have access to the lists-server I'm happy to work on=20
> improving the lists usability.
>=20
> So far I see three different things:
>=20
> 1. Remove modification of the emails on the lists server so that DKIM=20
> and DMARC will finally work
> 2. Improve/Update the interfaces of https://www.php.net/mailing-lists.=
php
> 3. Update (or possibly completely remove?) https://www.php.net/unsub.p=
hp
>=20
> The latest is linke in the added footer that would be removed by step =
1=20
> and that should be unnecessary anyhow as the list-unsubscribe header=20
> already should provide the email-clients with a way to show an=20
> unsubscribe button right in the email.
>=20
> Any volunteers helping are welcome!
>=20
> And please do voice concerns regarding point 1!!!!
>=20
> Cheers
>=20
> Andreas
>=20
> --=20
>                                                                ,,,
>                                                               (o o)
> +---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+
> | Andreas Heigl                                                       |
> | mailto:andreas@heigl.org                  N 50=C2=B022'59.5" E 08=C2=
=B023'58" |
> | https://andreas.heigl.org                                           |
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>=20
>=20
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