Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:120020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 70953 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2023 08:38:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO php-smtp4.php.net) (45.112.84.5) by pb1.pair.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 2023 08:38:50 -0000 Received: from php-smtp4.php.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by php-smtp4.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DC218054C for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 01:38:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on php-smtp4.php.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIMWL_WL_HIGH, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2,SPF_HELO_NONE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE,T_SPF_TEMPERROR autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-ASN: AS15169 209.85.128.0/17 X-Spam-Virus: No X-Envelope-From: Received: from mail-pg1-f176.google.com (mail-pg1-f176.google.com [209.85.215.176]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by php-smtp4.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 01:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-f176.google.com with SMTP id 129so7075187pgb.0 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 01:38:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=team.bumble.com; s=google; t=1681375124; x=1683967124; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=QEHYoUktBOBqXJNLPosCGQT8rqTS7L4M/B75g6cDMX4=; b=hyVLiZBdnTB3iPSjGLVnGsCq/KBsEPcC/Y/lcoe/RDdJYambihZFJiEwFswbAaAuBy wPLh/uLawJt7gobryr1IsZhum80Jc2U3J1BrTxJAoZkpld6JKDp8cDSBkcgkPt1u8QWR dcaqurcqcXLpFT2WIihiYaO1NecqH0rQFWkF4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681375124; x=1683967124; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=QEHYoUktBOBqXJNLPosCGQT8rqTS7L4M/B75g6cDMX4=; b=BiC0V8Clw+54gGzd+0LwH7ZD1CNvZ3lac62p5uWOItQUDZXtIF8zTpmmK6Kbx4XyVd ZpJAHBWtBdPZ8TLBvOcAfkqy/20h6qWw/dHgqH1NABnKSuW7UKt11YBH/p6WB0WWd8Qy aI58JNAYWfXA5x7l6bij/WGG+yZTdBO9+IS5/5Hq+yZ6MCGUPjwHuCJNhrv0IC+z4hPx i17SZefMrI8x/Omlh0swSqALPJdor7yUETH2qAOUIhE3cnUD4IhDBZmGzsxlCtQE0v1/ EhR/70Lonz1vtYCPSLUVQW7ON+kV3SPyppkH6P4GyLZfoAbtp6kRhyE0srXW9kFrhw9/ rKhw== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9cDowjwVraOZKDRtN5ngpWivTFHbrgvgQ2em5VlJFuScZRk5o6B 1+mGhgw6hnjXoAjBkOQ7xcEd4Q8taQxMBX4RTgijSFQjp1KRBg7Ghwc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bU9vzWUsrjb1W77y2qyce1M0G/hRzLbtfNDCh+zcbofHoawoApkbyK3xrBk+qPnIzZEArFAhVVYnUhCyQL2H4= X-Received: by 2002:a63:1b04:0:b0:50c:a00:c1fa with SMTP id b4-20020a631b04000000b0050c0a00c1famr258234pgb.7.1681375124016; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 01:38:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Reply-To: Mikhail Galanin Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:38:08 +0100 Message-ID: To: PHP Developers Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Moving PHP internals to GitHub From: internals@lists.php.net ("Mikhail Galanin via internals") Hello good people, Looks like another hot discussion on the list, isn't it? Just wanted to share my notice about the initial idea. 7 years ago there were people considering NNTP as an option. Nowadays, it's pretty clear that it isn't the way to go. It doesn't mean that technology is bad (although, someone can share their negative experience with that one) but instead, we hardly we can find a person who still uses it. If we switch to the News protocol, it is highly likely that we not just won't engage new members but instead, we'll lose those who are here. I reckon that this thread isn't about Github per se, it is rather a shout that the technology is declining. It happens slowly, hence it's hard to notice if you use it but suddenly you realise that people don't even know what a "mailing list" is. If we look at other projects (I will exclude Linux here: they still discuss patches over emails), many of them started using online tools (links below): * Firefox devs actively use Matrix (a free platform) as well as maillist * Kotlin doesn't use mail at all, they opted in using Slack + bug tracker + KEEPs (something like RFCs). * Docker does have a mailing list but it contains only spam over the last y= ear PHP switched to Git and Github as the code repository, I believe for the same reason: it is a more popular and well-known tool these days. So, the tooling for me isn't the toy with new fancy features (personally, I'm happy with SVN and email: I'm an old codger), it's rather about engaging new people, and making their life simpler. Moreover, if we don't want to make a sharp move, we can try introducing a new tool and see the activity there (or even introduce this for other topics, like "PHP users", "Extension developers", etc...). Links: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Matrix https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin/blob/master/docs/contributing.md https://groups.google.com/g/docker-dev Not trying to force any decision, just thought this was something that could be considered as well. Thanks and have a great day. On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 2:53=E2=80=AFPM Alex Wells wro= te: > > Hey. > > PHP currently uses internals@lists.php.net for communication. That includ= es > mostly RFCs (or their votings, or their pre-discussion) and sometimes > questions about the implementation or possible bugs. > > While emailing definitely works, it's not the best UX out there. Here are > some immediate flaws which make the process harder than it should be: > - having to subscribe to a mailing list to even see the discussions > - supporting public archives such as externals.io to expose discussions = to > the public for those who aren't subscribed and keep historical data > - having to learn the specific, uncommon rules of replying: bottom > posting, word wrapping, removing footers. It's not to say any of those > rules are complex or hard to follow; it's that they're basically > inapplicable outside of emails, so they're usually not known by newcomers= . > Also popular emailing clients don't do any of that automatically, making > each reply tedious. > - no way of editing a message. Mistakes will always be made, so being ab= le > to quickly fix them would be nice > - no formatting, especially code blocks. Sure, they are possible through > HTML, but there's no single common way which all of the emailing clients > will understand - like Markdown > - no reactions - it's hard to tell whether something is supported or not= . > This includes both the initiative being discussed and the replies that > follow. Sure, you can usually kind of judge the general narrative based o= n > the replies, but it's not always clear what's in favor. There are usually > many divergent branches of discussions and it's unknown what's supported > the most. > > Based on those issues and PHP, I propose moving the discussions elsewhere= - > to some kind of modern platform. Since this is quite a big change in the > processes used, I imagine an RFC would be needed. But before I do that I > want to measure the reactions. If it goes well, I'll proceed with an RFC > draft. > > There are basically two choices here - a messenger-like platform (i.e. > Slack, Teams) or a developer focused platform like GitHub. While messenge= rs > certainly work, they're more focused on working with teammates rather tha= n > actual discussions. They usually don't have a simple way to navigate > publicly and are poor at separating multiple topics into threads. Some > projects use them for that purpose, but it's usually a worse experience > than what GitHub provides. > > GitHub is already used by PHP for both the source code and the issues, so > that is a good candidate, especially since it's a platform designed to > handle cases like this. Also, that should be a much easier transition now > that the source and issues were moved to GitHub. > > Also, to be clear: I'm not proposing to remove all PHP mailing lists; som= e > of them are one way (i.e. notifications for something) so they should > definitely stay that way. Some of them might not even be used anymore. > However, I want this change to affect all two-way (discussion) mailing > lists if possible. Also, this does not include moving RFCs themselves to > GitHub, only the discussion that happens via email. > > What are your thoughts?