Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:119997 Return-Path: Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 88495 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2023 20:05:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO php-smtp4.php.net) (45.112.84.5) by pb1.pair.com with SMTP; 12 Apr 2023 20:05:41 -0000 Received: from php-smtp4.php.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by php-smtp4.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69398180556 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:05:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on php-smtp4.php.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL,SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-ASN: AS15169 209.85.128.0/17 X-Spam-Virus: No X-Envelope-From: Received: from mail-pj1-f44.google.com (mail-pj1-f44.google.com [209.85.216.44]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by php-smtp4.php.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:05:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-f44.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-246bc3d38cdso621649a91.1 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:05:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681329939; x=1683921939; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wdTtQIjL8PhIWonxg6UPcQE/i5ADznXUatp9DBeSbWw=; b=OK3fRg+wtmY5C0Tm5dR6mAlKaqZcoHZsOSiVaYW7rX+41C+dFJTwSlLKkivVE+ZqxT /OSxwz8jpL+f6P3dmdpzDvQKawrmXp0mO9mXzMbW58PctclxKQfZZuLiUYiFFD9sjg15 PaqXEJRZm2X4AHJsQ5o2UG1Idgl2wuvLUnJazrp9y/o6oFEaX4T+1FfGvqzuVTGbdjfx cEeB5MstZd1CvlzfV8ox4t++EvU7pNmtKPfUTVhUkI6mCz/Jnms7YDyrQUSbZFjJ9sre U3/36prC6wYUKju+ZuP2IUiu7y+qg1kji+2dWnLA4dysmuJpov7kxWSa2qJz4qWrgifY BI0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681329939; x=1683921939; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=wdTtQIjL8PhIWonxg6UPcQE/i5ADznXUatp9DBeSbWw=; b=c0AZYRxgezFbJNjsd/jy0PR99euBjjyPKpOe1gTB7ZRpWaYXEKAvAyGUxV1qRwv1Xc kweMnOA12/0PsriEwaqv4ilj5QcI974ifrbKLajlFcsLgK5SPztbvXc1IdorNShIqnD9 kiczy+WuGkLCDi2qsDrPVlEylj0/oVmwG3rHYXzeJwGP3cFJI4/gwQxX1lNvMF3AISVW 9Yo0MTTMwtaG4c4ohDZ52mUnNwqUyHHuI6UJohNM3QGsBUORP3o1UTqUAJuci7TU5Ap2 EqmRtECQWKz96N9RzbeHSh27e1UDeBX4cjwRABmJThWMFEWQEVcQ1HztluwFHWPBZFGG MQ+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9eitPgX9NC2jEGHW/6WpDU+vFuoYs/ggGBwhfOUyUV8IdJqAIy6 42A0rY17OOwVuR9C/uOH/teulZx+sAMV2EKsGM+eNK7JEj3h+Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350Z2PiUDXacdBW2769YYWSRyC2SBK8tYNgGrev+D3L1lqmxvqwOf9w/X14emtcDdxXlR6cYytsMheWu5XD0HH4Y= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:2e82:b0:626:2343:76b0 with SMTP id fd2-20020a056a002e8200b00626234376b0mr48269pfb.6.1681329939061; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:05:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230412140920.GD2480@phcomp.co.uk> <1f0773ce-5d3c-ae8c-d908-7489d580d0ba@processus.org> <001701d96d68$a4cbb420$ee631c60$@roze.lv> <31518116-53ca-ca6a-a54d-032d9d2e0b91@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 21:05:27 +0100 Message-ID: To: Arvids Godjuks Cc: internals@lists.php.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c4a2ff05f92921bf" Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Moving PHP internals to GitHub From: fenniclog@gmail.com (tag Knife) --000000000000c4a2ff05f92921bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 at 20:41, Arvids Godjuks wrote: > Here's a question: Who is going to be in charge of maintaining the GitHub > org and administrating it? > As someone who does community management for a long long time, I forsee > someone needing that to be their life for a project of this scale. Probably > multiple people. Paid for their work, I might add. > I don't know, there are already 40+ members in the group, i don't know who has what permissions though. > While we can't really say for sure how it would turn out, drawing on my > experience with online communities of all sorts and seeing what others had > to deal with on Github, things can get our of control fast. > GitHub is also not a suitable space to have RFC discussions and all that - > it's just not the right medium for that. Feedback - yes, gaging a wider > community for some feedback - sure. And maybe some of the PHP's mailing > lists can be moved to Github, since there are many. > > But internal development lists need to stay where they are. These lists > are not meant for the general public to drive by and throw in a question or > two. The noise-to-signal ratio already at times is too high on this list, > now imagine 10-20-30x the activity that Github will bring. It will become > unmanageable. You are also required to police your org. > You also ignore the biggest thing: Github is owned by Microsoft, and > Microsoft is an American company. It abides by US laws, politics and so on. > That has consequences and puts PHP project under the same umbrella, which > the mailing list is not under. Github (Microsoft) can't decide to ban > someone or ask for someone to be removed as a core developer from the > mailing list. On Github - they can. > > Well there are plenty of mailing list that could be trailed on. PHP-DOCS for example, could be moved to a discussion board on the php-docs repository. https://github.com/php/doc-en RFCs dont have a repository to belong too. > If people want to mirror internals to GitHub and manage it all and then > feed back the information into the list with links and feedback - > personally be my guest. But let's get one thing clear - email has been and > is the most critical communication tool out there and that is not going to > change. All those Slacks, Discords, Githubs, Microsoft Teams (why MS sucks > at making any type of messaging platform so badly?) in the end do not > replace email at all. Your email client cannot go offline just because > Amazon US-WEST-1 has died again (yes, it dying is basically a meme now). Or > because your provider had a major outage, so now you can't open Github. Or > someone misconfigured a BGP route and took down half the internet with it. > You can't have a copy of github on your phone, laptop, desktop or any other > device stored locally on each one of them giving you resiliency not to lose > all that data. What if github gets hacked and someone goes and nukes a > bunch of data? Or some DMCA takedown gets claimed against the org and > Github is required to comply by law? It does not matter that it might have > been bogus or frivolous - unless you have the funds to hire a lawyer and > defend yourself in court from which jurisdiction the DMCA came, you are > stuffed as a Thanksgiving turkey. > The internet is still the internet and all those issues can still effect email. I use gmail and if googles email servers go down email the mail server that send the email doesnt have retry setup I wont get that email. If my internet goes down I wont get the emails untill its back up. If the server PHP used for the maillist server goes down nothing get sent/received. The internet and everything connected to it can and will go down. Email isn't magically unaffected by that fact. --000000000000c4a2ff05f92921bf--