Newsgroups: php.internals
Path: news.php.net
Xref: news.php.net php.internals:119988
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CABigaAUZAC-UgcajT5anUFJOxzTxMzNip34Jcst16A23ogpSLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20230412140920.GD2480@phcomp.co.uk> <CABigaAWR6cn735WKY7G0EpYucJ49qoX=WrTw3uR_vHooy8Pr2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALKiJKoWexu8vOYqtEFnRnz1=+O1_srkLgfgCEz6bSDDnpNSkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1f0773ce-5d3c-ae8c-d908-7489d580d0ba@processus.org> <CABigaAWJXJaxAbkax1=G4UyHpo5OOdzrSjSVbMWO=8fayOivSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO__Xv5oEpFPVr3reNew63C7xna58ufwhBSgtvUWTFgXv=VZDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001701d96d68$a4cbb420$ee631c60$@roze.lv> <CAO__Xv7asMe0J_p8kt6LGV=Ut+Pi4vHhotjN1_U5_Dy3-1ig8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <31518116-53ca-ca6a-a54d-032d9d2e0b91@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <31518116-53ca-ca6a-a54d-032d9d2e0b91@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 20:53:14 +0200
Message-ID: <CAPzBOBOgsPvaAOO1gN0JVY61Y58hPMqqMN8w=5OuPeG_EfEYuA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Rowan Tommins <rowan.collins@gmail.com>
Cc: internals@lists.php.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Moving PHP internals to GitHub
From: landers.robert@gmail.com (Robert Landers)

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 8:42=E2=80=AFPM Rowan Tommins <rowan.collins@gmail.=
com> wrote:
>
> On 12/04/2023 19:05, tag Knife wrote:
> > I say this as someone who was trying to onboard themselves the other da=
y
> > (web-php and php-docs).
> > The entire process is archaic and uses "tools" from 20 years ago.
> > Onboarding for anything you're interested in doesn't really give a
> > direction at all (unless you're a dev).
> > It mostly boils down "do this, do that, after that figure it out yourse=
lf".
>
>
> I'd like to draw attention to a non sequitur between the above, totally
> valid criticism, and the below:
>
>
> > It really shows php's age that you have to join a mailing-list to even =
get
> > generic user support, let alone participate in development.
>
>
> None of the above has anything to do with it being a mailing list per
> se. You could have just as bad an experience trying to sign up for a web
> forum, or a chat room, or something-something-blockchain-ai-javascript.
>
> But to repeat: the complaints about the sign-up process are totally
> valid. I don't know enough about the system involved to make them
> smoother, but there's no reason signing up for a mailing list can't be
> as simple as enter address, confirm address, done. By all accounts, the
> PHP ones are not.
>
>
> > Look at the "Make WordPress" page compared to php's "Get Involved" page=
 and
> > the overall onboarding experience is so much nicer and improved.
> > People can get a general idea of how teams works, their goals, who's
> > leading who,
> > with helpful guides and direction to get people started.
>
>
> I agree to a point. My first impression of the Wordpress page you
> mention is that it's kind of overwhelming with the number of different
> teams, and it's mostly a directory of Slack channels, I think? (Hurrah,
> another Slack workspace to separately sign into on every device!) A more
> apt comparison is probably to https://www.php.net/mailing-lists.php
>
> What is probably lacking both there and the "Get Involved" page is a
> more direct statement that Internals is the central communication hub
> for the project. The mailing list page describes it as "A medium volume
> list for those who want to help out with the development of PHP" which
> is accurate but entirely unhelpful.
>
>
> Which brings me back to my earlier point: I wonder how much of the
> reaction is really about e-mail itself, and how much is just the
> documentation and sign-up forms you encounter *before* you hit the list.
> Because if it's the latter, migrating the entire community to a new
> platform won't help - we'll still suck at introducing anyone to that
> platform - and most of what we need is someone who's good with words to
> update some website copy.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Rowan Tommins
> [IMSoP]
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
>

Heh,

> Hurrah,
> another Slack workspace to separately sign into on every device!

From working at Automattic for nearly 6 years, I can say that they are
indeed, a very Slack-heavy organization. They used it very well
though, maybe too well ;)

- Rob